Is Dorne more Hispanic or South Asian? I’ve been told its more like Andulasia but I see Bollywood fancasts
West Asian, actually. GRRM says that the closest real life equivalent to Dorne is the Moorish influence in Spain. He also compares it to Palestine and goes on to use many elements that heavily overlap with MENA. @lyannas has a couple of excellent posts here and here that analyzes the Muslim and Arab influence in the depiction of Dorne. I highly recommend you read them but long story short, Dorne closely parallels MENA. India was never a part of the conversation at all. So the Bollywood actors thing is not accurate in the slightest and is actually upsetting on many levels (we’re not all interchangeable y’all) but I’ve learned to mostly ignore it, same as I’ve previously trained myself to ignore the fact that they keep casting Filipino actors for a story that is a part of fucking Arabian folklore. But that’s actually part of the problem because fancasts rely on existing material and Hollywood has a tendency to either cast white people in PoC roles, or cast any PoC they find as if we are monolith and our cultures and histories are all the same. South Asian actors play MENA characters a lot.
Oh? It’s so widespread with Dany that it has become difficult to understand some posts because of how given they treat the bastardization of her name and how expected it is that the rest of us would understand who they are talking about. I guess I should consider myself lucky that I have yet to see those who do the same with Sansa and Cersei. And of course it has to be the female characters getting that treatment. Of course.
The Princess of Dorne was likely ableist. Right now, I can’t think of
a single character in the series who is entirely innocent of this. But I
feel that refusing Tyrion was not due to the ableism, which, again, I
have to stress, I believe she possessed.
I disagree that the
Princess of Dorne would not have taken the offer as an insult even if
she considered Tyrion inadequate. One doesn’t have to share the view of
their society to know what they were. If for us readers it’s clear how
ableist Westeros is, it was surely known to the woman who lived in it.
Moreover, we don’t know HOW Tywin framed the offer. He might have used
language that was clearly offensive.
While I concede that Tywin’s language was surely not polite nor do I imagine that he made any attempt to hide how deliberately offensive he meant to be, I find it hard to reconcile the belief that everyone in Westeros is ableist to varying extents (which I share btw) with the assertion that for some unspecified reason that ableism was totally not a factor in this specific situation…. that involves a disabled character that literally every
character
we’ve met – including the lesser ableist ones, the moral and decent ones – have displayed ableism against, whether intentionally or not. That does not compute. Tyrion’s disability could not ever be separated from this situation any more that Elia’s could. Neither can we acknowledge that a societal bias against disability exists in everyone, but at the same time divorce it from a character reacting to a disabled person.
Lastly, I think the Princess
of Dorne had no other option but reject the offer because the overall
ableism in Westeros would mean that the Martells would be publicly
humiliated if they accepted Tyrion. If I remember correctly, NO House
wanted him even as he grew up and it became clear that he was not, at
least, mentally deficient. And we aren’t talking of any Great Houses.
The Martells just couldn’t have him in this lovely world of Westeros. It
was a matter of standing, although I don’t think she, personally, was
this thrilled at the perspective to have Elia wait for at least 13 years
for a dwarf to grow up anyway.
In short, while I believe she was
ableist, I don’t think she ever had the option to accept and it was not
due to her ableism. She might have disliked the option partly because of
her ableism (I believe she did) but accepting was never a true
possibility and it wouldn’t have been even if she did not mind Tyrion
himself personally. Being just and objective was not her primary goal.
Ensuring a better standing for her House was.
I don’t know if this didn’t come across properly in my original post but I did note that there were perfectly rational political reasons for the Princess of Dorne to reject the match. It certainly had its significant downsides. I’m not saying that the rejection of the match is inherently ableist or that the Princess had to accept a disadvantageous match to prove she wasn’t ableist. That’s silly and plenty offensive. My point was that thinking it an outrage that Tyrion was offered as a match – which is intrinsically tied to his dwarfism – has ableist elements. That is it.
And yeah, no other House wanted Tyrion for their daughters. Ableism is also the cause of that. Hoster Tully telling Tywin that he wanted a full man for his daughter isn’t exactly ambiguous in its ableism. But other people’s ableism doesn’t change the Princess’s own or make it more acceptable.
Did I say
“lastly”? I suppose I lied. Honestly, this ask sounds like Round 2 in
the War of Sainted Rhaegar Who Did Nothing Wrong and His Glorious
Defence. It’s been quiet here for the last two ot so days. We’ll see if
the rest of us receive similar asks, the way we did last time.
I do have my concerns about that but I’m choosing to have a conversation about a subject worth addressing over refusing to criticize someone who I do think was a caring person but also a flawed human out of concern that someone could twist my words. It’s not like they are waiting for me to justify their hate. I can’t control if someone chooses to use a critical post as “proof” that a certain character is bad. I can only try to make my point as clear as I can and hope for the best. Fingers crossed?
And if Melantha and Betha Blackwood were sisters, then the Starklings are added into the (recent) Targaryen relations pool
I tend to think of Melantha and Betha as cousins but I’d be delighted if they turned out to be sisters. I mean, that Aerys and Rickard might share a great grandfather is a fascinating thought. Or that Ned/Lyanna/Brandon and Rhaegar might be cousins. Or that Ned and Robert might be cousins. That would be interesting.
I never even considered how most of the characters came from Targaryens. Like, I knew it, but I never really thought on it.
I once had a moment when I realized that Jon, Gendry, Brienne and Arianne are all distantly related. Hell, Jon and Gendry are third cousins, I think. Jon and Stannis are actually cousins. It’s very weird when you stop and think about it.
A conspiracy theory I’ve pondered (but doubt actually happened) is that it was Pycelle who examined her and declared her incapable. Not because she actually was but because he was pro-Lannister and perhaps if Elia was deemed unable to have more kids (a tragic “accident” befalling Aegon and/or Rhaenys, ofc) Rhaegar would be persuaded to set her aside in favor of younger, healthier Cersei, especially in exchange for Tywin helping dethrone Aerys. A plan which then backfired SPECTACULARLY.
I too am highly skeptical of this theory. My first issue with it is a question of access. Elia and Rhaegar took residence on Dragonstone after their wedding while Pycelle, by virtue of his position as Grand Maester, was in King’s Landing. While I guess it’s possible for him to have made the trip to Dragonstone for the delivery considering Elia’s station, I really doubt that Aerys cared enough to send him and I doubt that Pycelle himself made the suggestion considering Aerys’ feelings about both Rhaegar and Elia, especially after the “smells Dornish” awfulness. So I highly doubt that Elia was ever placed under Pycelle’s care while on Dragonstone. But even if she had, Pycelle wouldn’t have been her sole or even primary caretaker. Noble households have their own maester(s) and I don’t discount the possibility that the Princess of Dorne took the initiative to include a maester in the retinue that accompanied Elia to court, considering her knowledge of Elia’s health issues and since it’d be useful if someone who was familiar with Elia’s condition was on hand to look after her. So while it’s possible that the maester that looked after Elia during her pregnancy would have conceded his position as the lead in her delivery out of respect for Pycelle’s position, I highly doubt he’d have left her care completely to the Grand Maester. Elia’s health complications probably ensured that the person who had been her primary physician over the course of her pregnancy would have definitely
been involved since he knew her case better than anyone, and I reckon that there might have been multiple trained professionals in the room anyway considering the difficulty of Elia’s deliveries. Pycelle can’t pass a bogus diagnosis of that magnitude right under everyone’s noses under these circumstances.
Another issue I have with this theory is that it involves way too many shifting pieces and requires more involvement than Pycelle was capable of. He can’t well arrange accidents for the children if he was in another city, and we’ve gotten no indication that he was conspiring with someone else to do it. And if he had this plan in his back-pocket, why wait till Aegon was born and everything got more complicated? Why wait till he had to sell two murders as accidents instead of just one? Rhaenys came to King’s Landing as an infant so why didn’t he act when she was within his reach?
Finally there is what Jon Connington says which I consider the most conclusive piece of evidence against this theory. While thinking of Elia, he says that “the maesters” told Rhaegar that Elia could bear no more children. Connington knew Pycelle and would have used the Grand Maester’s name if he was the source of the diagnosis. Also, his wording suggests that this was the conclusion of multiple people, not just one maester whoever he was. So while Pycelle might have had the motive in being the biggest Tywin fanboy this side of Kevan Lannister, his means were pretty limited and his opportunity almost non-existent.
That is too many words arguing against a theory you already disbelieve but I regret nothing.
there are plenty of reasons besides a hysterectomy? damage to the uterus, scarring, damage to the vaginal canal – things we could solve today with antibiotics or c-sections (note a c-section without modern antibiotics or anesthesia is a *great* way to kill a woman from shock) – the list is really long. hell, anemia or low levels of coagulants could do it.
Ah, this is great. Thanks Butterfly. I knew that there were other reasons but I didn’t have sufficient knowledge to know what they actually are.
Every time I see this come up on Tumblr, I have the most awful feeling – mainly because I posted a statement that included this to underscore how ridiculous a segment of the fandom was being, and there’s this sick feeling that that it may have been taken literally.
I didn’t know this was something that’s being widely discussed.
That’s really going around? I’d say I’m surprised but this is the same
fandom that loves to argue that Ned caused the War of the Five Kings and
put his honor above the realm. I’ve learned to roll with it.
That said, that message is old. I received it months ago right before I rode into the sunset for about 4 months. I don’t know when you posted your statement but if it’s recent, then it wasn’t the source.
Sam speaks 