Tag: Sam replies

samwpmarleau

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“samwpmarleau
replied to your post “I HATE to type this, please,…”

Except that a very large part of Tywin’s hatred of Tyrion is that Joanna died giving birth to him, and that extended to Elia–if healthy Joanna died in childbirth, then Tywin postulated that sickly Elia would too (which he did in canon, he was waiting for her to die). Like, Tyrion has a whole complex about it. Tywin would still be ableist, but with Joanna surviving and her lobbying for the match (and the match being a good one politically), I think it would go through.

We seem to have different views on the extent of Tywin’s hatred of Tyrion which I think was informed by a mix of extreme prejudice, a violent reaction to Joanna’s death and the fact that Tyrion’s birth brought many of the issues Tywin had wrt his father to the surface. Joanna’s death undoubtedly had a huge influence but focusing primarily on that in explaining Tywin’s reaction strips it of context. The text has repeatedly made a point of how easy it is to scapegoat Tyrion specifically because of his disability. He has been accused/suspected of being a murderer on three different occasions for no reason but being a dwarf. The tragedy of Joanna’s death was tied to Tyrion’s so-called monstrosity on several occasions

in a way that makes it clear that his disability is a large part of why he was blamed for it. I don’t think Tywin would have reacted as violently if the child Joanna died birthing was able-bodied. But she died birthing “a monster” so it has to be his fault. Just like he has to be the Valonqar because he is a monster. Just like he has to be Joffrey’s killer because he is a monster. It’s a foregone conclusion in their minds.

Then there is Tywin’s issue with how Tyrion does not fit the superior image Tywin worked so hard to project to the rest of Westeros. Tywin was obsessed with Lannister image and Lannister supremacy and, to his mind, Tyrion’s very existence visibly undermined that. Tyrion recalled all the issues Tywin had with his father through no fault of his own.
Think of how Tyrion was said to have been sent to punish Tywin for his arrogance, or how he was called
Lord Tywin’s Doom and Lord Tywin’s Bane across Westeros. Tyrion’s birth made Tywin a mockery across all of Westeros and publicly emasculated him which is way too reminiscent of Tytos and his own very public feebleness. Tywin’s steadfast belief that Tyrion couldn’t be his is a direct reaction to that. No, such a monstrous deformed child couldn’t have come from his seed. That suggests a weakness in him and Lord Tywin is not weak, dammit. Nope. Lannisters are perfect. Lannisters are superior. Lannisters don’t bring public ridicule to the family name like that feeble Tytos.

Those issues might have been exacerbated by Joanna’s death, but they remain all the same in the case of her survival. Tywin’s main issue with Tyrion was his dwarfism and that was a main reason for why he blamed Tyrion for Joanna’s death in the first place. Tyrion’s so-called monstrosity came from his dwarfism before it came from Joanna’s death. He’d have remained an ill-begotten twisted monster in Tywin’s eyes even if Joanna had lived. That reaction to Tyrion’s disability and that resentment of how it
compromises

Lannister image, Tywin’s image, would still be there no matter what.

Which brings me to Elia. First of all, I find it hard to attribute the act of equating Elia and Tyrion to Joanna’s death rather than their disability. In an instance where it’s so clear that it’s ableism that drove Tywin’s reaction, I don’t see how Joanna’s survival would temper that or prevent that automatic association between the two in Tywin’s head. Second, I really don’t think Tywin’s issue was “if healthy Joanna died then sickly Elia would” because Tywin didn’t give a fig about Elia and Jaime could always remarry if she died. Tywin’s concern was Jaime’s line so if the common thought was that a healthy mother bears healthy children but healthy Joanna birthed a feeble deformed dwarf that was thought likely to die, how would sickly Elia fare?
Tywin had a front row seat to Rhaella’s string of miscarriages and weak
children who died in their cradles and now his own healthy wife
delivered “a malformed” child that was believed likely to die soon.

I think that his thought process was that Elia’s health raises the chances of her having ill children which would “compromise” Jaime’s line and Tywin’s own legacy by extension.
Third, I have my doubts that Tywin would see the match as a good one politically.
The Martells have a ton of prestige and it’d certainly look great if
Tywin’s heir married a born princess just as his daughter married the
crown prince,

but not only was Tywin really racist, but I think that Dorne’s lesser economic and military power compared to the other kingdoms and the fact that Elia was some 9 years older than Jaime and chronically ill – which in Westerosi terms detracts from her worth as a marriage pawn since that would be seen as a detriment to producing healthy children – are things that would bring down the match in Tywin’s eyes.