replied to your post

“Jon Arryn dies right after the rebellion and before Sweetrobin is…”

I am interested in what happens to Lysa in this AU.

Back to Riverrun. She’d have no authority in the Vale and no place in the court of the new ruler of the Eyrie. She might prefer seeking
out Petyr but (1) Petyr would only be a minor lord without Jon Arryn elevating him to the customs position in Gulltown and if Jon dies right after the rebellion, he wouldn’t have the chance to do even that, and (2) Petyr wouldn’t want Lysa if there is nothing in it for him. With her ties in the Vale severed by Jon’s death, and Hoster Tully wanting nothing to do with his former foster son, I don’t see Petyr humoring a woman he clearly despised. That leaves Lysa with no option but to go back to Riverrun where Hoster would definitely try to make her another political match.

@joannalannister

replied to your post

“Was lyarra stark alive during robert’s rebellion ?”

I think she died shortly after Benjen was born and that’s why Lyanna kinda ran wild. But I REALLY wish GRRM wouldn’t just leave me with WILD SPECULATION >.>

I’m half expecting Martin to tell us that she died birthing Benjen though I really don’t want another childbirth death. I’d settle for a winter fever killing her at this point, or even an accident when she was riding because I kind of like the thought of Brandon and Lyanna inheriting their love for riding from their mother. Lyarra was the daughter of a mountain clanswoman and a guy called the Wandering Wolf so I think of her as a good rider, free spirit and very wolf-blooded. I often headcanon that Lyanna takes after her mother in the same way that Arya takes after her aunt.

I do think Lyarra was dead long before Rickard put his SA plans into action, but I keep going back and forth on when she died exactly. I freely admit that any thoughts I had about her dying in Benjen’s infancy comes mostly from an attempt to rationalize her complete lack of mention in Ned’s POV.

If Jon Arryn dies earlier while his son is an infant would Petyr go ahead and marry Lysa? What would Holster think?

In Petyr’s words:

“It would not have been fitting for a daughter of Riverrun to marry one
so far below her.“ Littlefinger spread his hands. “Now, though … a
match between the Lady of the Eyrie and the Lord of Harrenhal is not so
unthinkable, is it?”

Before Tywin bestowed the lordship of Harrenhal on Petyr, he was but a very minor noble in the Vale, no way close to being a suitable match to the Lady Regent of the Eyrie. While Lysa might not care about his station from a personal standpoint, her lords bannermen definitely would. Lysa was not exactly liked in the Vale; she was seen as an outsider, her policies openly derided by her lords, and her regency only grudgingly accepted in OTL, as Brynden Tully tells Catelyn.

Nestor Royce has been high steward these past fourteen years, while Lord
Jon served in King’s Landing, and many whisper that he should rule
until the boy comes of age. Others believe that Lysa must marry again,
and soon. Already the suitors gather like crows on a battlefield. The
Eyrie is full of them.

These are people who are not happy that Lysa Arryn is the one who commands them. They either want to replace her altogether or install a suitable valeman to rule besides her. The proud lords of the Vale do not consider the grandson of a foreign sellsword a suitable ruler. It would not be all that hard to use the marriage to Littlefinger to challenge Lysa’s regency and take control of the infant Robert to “raise him up to be a knight that Jon Arryn would be proud of”. Look no farther than the reaction of the Lords Declarant to Littlefinger in AFFC to get an idea of how badly that marriage would be received, particularly at a time of peace when some pretty powerful political players were still alive, and when Petyr did not have the “empty” lordship of Harrenhal to elevate his station. Petyr is more than aware enough to recognize the political downside to that marriage and the backlash it would garner, not just from the Vale lords, but also from Robert, Ned, and Hoster (also Stannis), none of whom would be eager to surrender the care of the infant Lord of the Eyrie to Petyr Baelish of all people, or to let the slimy master of coin rule from Jon Arryn’s seat.

Is it possible that the pregnancies with the birth of the dead Lysa babies are due to Jon’s age (and even fertility)? Or could it be because of her fertility? Or even both?

It’s possible. Jon was over 60 when he married Lysa, and his two previous marriages were without issue, though his first wife died in childbirth. It could be that those two marriages were simply short and thus were not a reflection of Jon’s fertility or an indication that he had fertility issues, but I honestly doubt they were short marriages, otherwise Jon would have taken a third wife to produce an heir and secure the inheritance long before the Rebellion and Elbert’s death since the Arryns were clearly hard-pressed for male heirs.

But then again, Jon and Lysa conceived 8 times over the course of 14 years with no problem, it’s the continuance of the pregnancy that was the issue. Now it is possible for a miscarriage to happen due to an issue with the sperm so I wouldn’t discount the possibility of Jon’s age or fertility being a factor. However, the clearer explanation we have lies in Lysa’s forced abortion and how it clearly caused some kind of damage to her system. GRRM was helpful enough to provide us with the ingredients for moon tea, which include some pretty powerful (and dangerous) natural
abortifactants. Some of the herbs used in moon tea are highly toxic and could even kill if not taken carefully, which GRRM very well knows. So while “moon tea” is a fantasy invention of Martin’s that is used as both a contraceptive and an abortificant in Westeros, we can infer that it could have some serious side effects, something that it seems to have caused in Lysa’s case considering how Hoster Tully kept raving about “tansy” and “blood” to Catelyn.

He does not know me. Catelyn
had grown accustomed to him taking her for her mother or her sister
Lysa, but Tansy was a name strange to her. “It’s Catelyn,” she said.
“It’s Cat, Father.”
“Forgive me … the blood … oh, please … Tansy …“

When she touched him, Lord Hoster moaned. “Forgive me,” he said, so
softly she could scarcely hear the words. “Tansy … blood … the blood …
gods be kind …”

The repeated mention of blood and the “gods be kind” suggests this wasn’t just the usual bleeding a woman has after an abortion or a delivery but that the moon tea caused some adverse affect that caused Lysa to hemorrhage and might even have damaged her uterus somehow leading to her subsequent childbearing problems and repeated miscarriages.

And ain’t that a kicker? Because…

Lord Hoster groaned. “Dead.” His hand groped for [Catelyn’s]. “You’ll have others … sweet babes, and trueborn.”

Hoster rationalized his deception of Lysa and the abortion he forced on her with the thought that she’d go on to have other trueborn children, except that it’s Hoster’s actions that caused Lysa’s inability to have them. He was the reason she only had Sweetrobin to show after nine pregnancies.

lady-arryn:

Small wonder her marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.

If Cat was the heir would have gone outside the Riverlands for a husband or go for Ned?

Hoster Tully is always going outside the Riverlands for spouses for his children if he could manage it, regardless of who the heir is. He is a very ambitious man, and apparently quite the haggler. Look at the betrothal he makes or tries to make for his family. The heir to Winterfell for Cat, the heir to Casterly Rock for Lysa, a Dornish Princess for Edmure and a scion of the wealthy Redwynes for the Blackfish. Even when some of his plans gets shot to hell, he still manages to get the lord of Winterfell and the lord of the Vale (the latter in particular is impressive since normally a highborn maiden’s deflowering and pregnancy utterly tank her hand’s worth but Hoster manages to spin it in a way that gets him a Lord Paramount. Like I said, quite the haggler)

Now Cat’s hand gets even more valuable with her as heir, and he still has Lysa as another marriage pawn. We know that Hoster wanted the alliance with Winterfell but whether he thinks it best to get it through a CatNed match or a LysaBrandon match is up in the air. If he has Jaime Lannister already in mind as a potential suitor for Lysa, he’d go for Ned as Cat’s match. This way he gets the alliance with Winterfell, the Vale and the Stormlands while also having Lysa as the lady of Casterly Rock, a prize that surpasses being lady of Wintefell.

Had Brandon married Cat before going to the capital would Holster go straight into the war?

Oh I’m sure he would still try to get whatever advantages he could out of the situation -especially the Jon-Lysa match- just as he did in canon. Make no mistake, Hoster was always going to go to war in canon. Feudal contracts are built on mutual obligations that gains the overlord the fealty and military service of their vassals in exchange for providing protection to them. A scion of House Mallister and his father were just killed by Aerys without a trial – and with the latter being promised safe conduct from the crown to make it worse. Hoster had to act otherwise he’d lose his legitimacy as lord paramount.

Moreover, Aerys was an unpredictable madman whose paranoia encompassed even distant and marriage kin of whoever he deems guilty. He had just ordered the execution of Lyanna’s betrothed –Aerys’ own kin– as well as her brother. What guarantee did Hoster have that his paranoia wouldn’t find a new target in Brandon’s fiancee, Catelyn? No, he was always going to join the war, he just milked every advantage first.

Now the danger to Catelyn increases if she and Brandon got married before his murder. Catelyn could be carrying Brandon’s child for all Hoster knows. If she is, he is even more locked in to fight for the Starks. But that does not mean he isn’t going to haggle.

Cersei & Lysa Parallels

starklyannas:

Envious of their sibling

When we were little, Jaime and I were so much alike that even our lord father could not tell us apart. Sometimes as a lark we would dress in each other’s clothes and spend a whole day each as the other. Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me. ‘What do I get?’ I remember asking. We were so much alike, I could never understand why they treated us so differently. Jaime learned to fight with sword and lance and mace, while I was taught to smile and sing and please. […] Jaime’s lot was to be glory and power, while mine was birth and moonblood. (Sansa VI, ACOK)

Yes, your mother, your precious mother, my own sweet sister Catelyn. Don’t you think to play the innocent with me, you vile little liar. All those years in Riverrun, she played with Petyr as if he were her little toy. She teased him with smiles and soft words and wanton looks, and made his nights a torment. (Sansa VII, ASOS)

Suspicious of Sansa

Queen you shall be … until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. (Cersei III, AFFC)

You think you can have any man you want because you’re young and beautiful. (Sansa VII, ASOS)

Resented the patriarchy for being “sold off”

I was to be sold to some stranger like a horse, to be ridden whenever my new owner liked, beaten whenever he liked, and cast aside in time for a younger filly. (Sansa VI, ACOK)

Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. (Sansa VII, ASOS)

Unhappy marriages

There were chills in this room, and her wretched royal husband had died beneath this canopy. Robert Baratheon, the First of His Name, may there never be a second. A dim, drunken brute of a man. Let him weep in hell. (Cersei VII, AFFC)

That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too. (Sansa VI, ASOS)

Killed their husbands

Oh, indeed. Cersei gave him the wineskins, and told him it was Robert’s favorite vintage.“ The eunuch shrugged. “A hunter lives a perilous life. If the boar had not done for Robert, it would have been a fall from a horse, the bite of a wood adder, an arrow gone astray … the forest is the abbatoir of the gods. It was not wine that killed the king. It was your mercy. (Eddard XV, AGOT)

No need for tears … but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. (Sansa VII, ASOS)

Had secret affairs

And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole. (Eddard XII, AGOT)

I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. (Sansa VI, ASOS)

Killed by their lover, the last person they expect to betray them

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you. (Cersei VIII, AFFC)

“Only Cat.” He gave her a short, sharp shove.

Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind. (Sansa VII, ASOS)