since Daenerys has seen the WW/wights as well, and then one of them
makes a move (probably Dany, since Jon isn’t too forward with women; I
don’t think he’s made the first move once, at least show-vise?) and when
he finally sort of catches himself, he realises that this means more to
Dany than to him (since I do think she’s in love with him), which, you
know, is still really shitty, but at least it’s not premeditated
taking-advantage-of-her-feelings.
Here’s the thing: Jon does not actually know the dark sides of Dany’s power, he has not witnessed it firsthand to truly understand that part. He is aware that she used her dragons in combat but he was not there to be fazed by the destruction, neither did he witness or, as far as we know, even learn of how she dealt with Randyll and Dickon Tarly. The show conveniently spared Jon that dilemma by having him separated from seeing the damage the dragons can inflict, meaning that it remains abstract in his mind, and was merely a passing point of unease that was quickly brushed aside by that conversation with Dany about how “power can be terrible”. So Jon does not associate the dragons with death and destruction, but with saving his ass and giving him and the entire realm a much needed advantage against the Others, with the potential to save millions of life.
Moreover, as Dany stated, she is not going to the North as a conqueror but as a savior, someone who is lending her significant strength to the real fight and who has grown to respect and appreciate the counsel of the North’s chosen leader. I did not see the slightest hint that Jon is wary of what Dany might do if she is not received warmly by the North. He knows she won’t because he gave a whole speech about how the North sees southrons at the beginning of the season, and he was there to listen to the Northern lords express doubts about Dany before he left for Dragonstone. He also knows that the North remembers how they fought to bring down the Targaryens. Jorah reminds them of that fact in the finale, and Jon encounters it with his own plan to have Dany sail to White Harbor with him which is
specifically tailored to send a message that Dany is not coming to use
her superior power to subjugate the North, and to familiarize her as a
leader to the Northern lords.
Also, if Jon was wary of Dany and how she might react to Northern skepticism or even downright hostility, he would not have bent the knee to her in the first place. Because not only is bending the knee bound to make the Northmen even more unhappy, but it does not make sense for Jon to hand Dany authority over his people if he thinks she would harm them on a whim.
Finally, it was Jon who made that final move that progressed the mutual silent pining between them into a full-fledged romantic entanglement. Actually, Jon made some pretty obvious overtures through romantically-charged gestures this season. Bending the knee to Dany as they shared a Moment is one, publicly announcing that he pledged himself to Queen Daenerys in the dragon pit is another, and the crowning move was him going to her chambers with the clear intent to turn their relationship physical. I do not think the show framed the relationship as Dany being more invested or Jon simply seeking assurance, and the way they showed this to the backdrop of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s own story, that the show took the simplified romance route with, does not leave room for your theory imo.
Sometimes an elephant is just an elephant, anon. The story is that Jon and Dany fell for each other, no need to strain ourselves to find non-existent clues that suggest something else.
Jon’s physical attraction to Dany was established through Davos, they shared several ~moments~ and meaningful stares, Jon pledged himself to her on two separate occasions, both heavy with romantic subtext, they had the ~intimately stare in each other’s eyes and tenderly frame the other’s face while they are thrusting~ sex montage. It’s done.
It might not have been well-written, it might not have been properly
handled, but honestly, what was well-written or properly handled this
season?
The show does not exactly do subtlety or nuanced relationships, and they simply have no time to handle such complications in the relationship when they have the big R+L=J reveal and the conflict it would definitely bring on both a personal and political front, not to mention the army of the dead making it through the Wall and into the North. By the time Jon and Dany make it to the North, it’ll be in a full out crisis mode, and the writers will have way bigger fish to fry to do a story about Jon and Dany not being on the same page with their relationship.
My dude, my man, did you miss the part where Arya was trained by Faceless Men? The show pretty much turned Arya into a ninja, what with the ridiculous chase of last season, which was only cemented with Arya’s spar with Brienne this season that not only showed skill but also precision and great physical strength because withholding hits from Brienne of Tarth is no easy feat. That’s how Arya is different from Sansa.
But that isn’t the root of the problem, is it? The problem here is that this has turned into a Sansa vs Arya discussion when it did not have to be. Mind you, the show did not make it any better, but let’s not pretend that this is a brand new sentiment in fandom. Dragging one girl into the mud when discussing the other is a favorite pastime in fandom. There are ways to criticize Arya’s plot and role in that scene without turning this into a drivel against Sansa. If, say, the point was that the show has turned Arya’s story into this very violent arc where they had her revel in revenge and blood so for her to say that she is the executioner magnify what was already a huge problem in characterization and a fundamental misunderstanding of Arya’s character. If the point was that Arya’s presentation as the executioner felt reductive to a rich character that got the short end of the stick in the show’s narrative. But that was not the point being argued, was it? No, it was “Sansa reduced Arya to an executioner!! Sansa ignored Stark morals!!! OVERTHROW HER…. but reeducate Arya and Bran because they have been used by evil sister Sansa”
It rubs you the wrong way that we’re quick to jump to Sansa’s defense? We’re literally being told that Sansa “is disregarding Northern values” and that Ned would be disappointed, and that Sansa should be overthrown. Why? Because she did not kill Littlefinger herself. If you can’t figure out why we are defending Sansa against that crap, I honestly do not know what to say to you. All that drivel about how Sansa reduced her brother and sister to Google and an executioner reeks of Sansa hate, because Sansa did not reduce anyone to anything, she gave Arya the credit for bringing LF down ffs. That whole thing was planned, and Bran and Arya chose to assume these roles because all three worked as a unit in that scene, representing House Stark. Did I miss a scene where Sansa compelled Arya and Bran to behave a certain way or say a certain thing, where she ordered them to? No? Then stop taking your frustration at how the show butchered Arya’s characterization on Sansa. Sansa did not use Arya and Bran. Arya and Bran made a choice and orchestrated the whole trial with Sansa. And let me take a moment to remind everyone that Bran gave that blade to Arya for a reason. Or was Sansa to blame for that one as well?
And you know, I find it reaaaally interesting that no one was throwing rage parties and spouting things about betraying Northern values and Ned being disappointed when ROBB STARK had the Karstark men hanged. But yes, by all means, defend the thought-process that slitting someone’s throat is the definitive mark of good leadership. And insist on bringing the discussion to a Sansa vs Arya dichotomy when THE OP DID NOT EVEN MENTION ARYA.
People just love to hate Sansa don’t they? I saw someone on twitter say that Ned would be disappointed because Sansa passed the sentence but didn’t kill LF. Come on, I don’t think anything made Ned prouder than his three babies teaming up to execute that slimy piece of scum
Sansa stans just like to project themselves as victims don’t they? It’s not only about Sansa not killing Baelish, is that Arya said I’m the executioner. An executioner, a headsman in House Stark and that’s just not okay. Because that is what Ned was against. Bran and Ned had a conversation about headsman and it went like this:
and there are actually people saying Sansa swing the sword and that sword is Arya is even worse because once again it deprives Arya of her humanity, reduce her into an object and become Sansa’s servant, in this case a headsman, an executioner.
The North does not have a headsman. And even if it’s a joint decision, the person who is ultimately sentencing another human being to die should be the one to swing the sword….the actual sword, like the sword that kills you( no, a sword is not a person who is ordered around). Think of it in this way- You are sentencing a person’ life to be taken away as a punishment for everything he/she has done. But tell me do you truly have the right to take away that life? Because you sure don’t have the ability to give someone life ( i’m not saying this in a biological sense), none of us do….so the north believes that it is YOUR duty to bear the burden of the sentence that YOU passed. YOU will have to look in the eyes of the person YOU are sentencing to die & then YOU have to swing that sword. YOU will have to be the one who is *solely* responsible for a death. If YOU can’t do that maybe the person did not deserve to die.
Can Sansa swing a sword properly? Or slit someone’s throat as quickly, and efficiently as Arya had?
No.
And you can really mess up slitting a person’s throat; causing them more pain for a longer period of time. Whereas, properly done, the victim loses consciousness very quickly.
Also: beheading someone with a sword takes a great deal of upper body strength.
So Arya’s act as executioner was the best solution, and if Ned would have been disappointed, then that would have been his own dumb ass problem.
“Sansa is so pure and moral and a true stark”
Sansa: ignores a major stark moral
“But swords are heavy you guys!!”
Gotta love how eager a certain set of stans are to defend Dan and David’s Winterhell masterpiece. Could it possibly be because it aligns so closely with their own hopes and fics? Their fav is ruling over all while her brother and sister are reduced to nothing but tools for her to access at will. Yep, sounds like most fics plaguing AO3.
But anyway, yes, Ned would be disappointed that Northern values are being disregarded in favor of a southron practice. The Northern lords and ladies present would be livid and would see Sansa as unfit to lead them, even temporarily. Reducing Arya to just an executioner while Bran is nothing but Google would have been her last act as Lady of Winterfell. They would have removed her from power and ruled as a council until Jon returned, all the while re-educating Bran and Arya on their own culture since the show versions seem to have forgotten.
Man. Y’all be crazy about this shit. 2 points- first off, if Ned would be “disappointed,” he would only have himself to blame, why? Because he was the one neglecting to teach this apparently huge moral lesson to his daughters- only made sure his sons knew.
2nd- It doesn’t matter if it was Sansa swinging or Arya, or hell, even if Bran rolled his happy as over and did it. Their house passed judgement. Their house executed him. There is no ambiguity there. Arya wasn’t being paid or forced to kill someone, she helped pass judgement and killed a bitch.
I’ve already written way more than I want to about a fucking TV show- if only you paid this much attention to politics in America.
Sansa did look LF in the eyes and listen to his final words. Also, Sansa wasn’t the only one passing judgment. When she laid out the charges against LF, she used the words “our mother” and “our father.” It was a combined judgment fully supported by Bran and Arya. She wasn’t just speaking for herself, she was speaking on behalf of her entire family. I’m sure if Sansa had been taught some kind of violent skill, she would have “swung the sword” as well.
The idea that the northern lords would be so outraged at Sansa not committing the death stroke they would revolt against her, strip her of her authority, and set up Bran and Arya in her place or a council is so laughable and preposterous I honestly don’t know what to say to that.
Why people don’t want Sansa, Arya, and Bran to work together as a team is beyond me. Yes, Ned Stark said that the person who passes the sentence should swing the sword, but not everyone is capable of swinging swords and he certainly never expected or wanted Sansa to be. What he did expect and want for Sansa and Arya was for them to work together.
“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. […] Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you …” ~ A Game of Thrones, Arya II
Arya wasn’t reduced to nothing but an executioner. She’s more than that. But there’s no denying she has strengths that Sansa doesn’t have, that Bran doesn’t have. She is sharing those strengths with her family, with her pack, just like her father told her to. Sansa, Arya, and Bran are all working together to protect one another, and Ned would be proud.
Apparently I’m about to take part in the discourse (oh god, I hate that discourse) but anyway.
I’m not going to address the mess that was the Winterfell plot or even comment on the many outrageous things there, but I just want to point one thing out: there has been discussion in fandom for a good while now on how limiting the view of “the man who passes the sentence swings the sword” is. It is presented and viewed as something more honorable, more northern, to swing the sword yourself. But while there is meaningful lesson in that line of thinking (taking personal responsibility for your condemnation of a person to death, understanding the value of human life and how the decision to take one should never be easy), it is something that is tailored to able-bodied men. A disabled person like Bran or Tyrion can’t swing the sword even if they so wished, a woman who received no physical training like Sansa can’t swing the sword, very few women can in Westeros, does that make automatically them dishonorable? Would it be more honorable for them to try and end up botching the execution? Would you have seen Sansa as more fit to rule had she tried to execute LF herself and only succeeded in killing him slowly? I mean, Farlen’s execution in the books (Ser Rodrick’s in the show) stands as clear evidence of what happens when someone who have no idea what they are doing attempts to swing the sword. And hell, Theon was physically able and fit with significantly more upper body strength than Sansa, and he still botched it.
It’s an ableist and sexist view to exclusively see ability to swing the sword as a mark of honor (and honestly, fandom is far too rigid in interpreting that phrase. Good lord.) And to use a physical incapability that Bran and Sansa have no control over and that prevent them from following Ned’s sentiment as “proof” that they betrayed Northern values and that Ned would be ashamed is just ugly. WTF, man. I mean, okay, take Sansa out of the equation. If Bran was ruling in Winterfell and he sentenced anyone to die, how exactly do you think that sentence would have been carried out? Through a proxy. That’s the only way.
But I guess Bran also should never be in charge of Winterfell according to several people above. How dare he be disabled and unable to follow Northern traditions? Ned would totally disown him if he was alive. Totes.
First of all, just because the War of the Roses is one of GRRM’s inspiration for asoiaf does not mean it’s a one-to-one parallel. Martin drew inspiration from several sources, historical and literary, while constructing his world, among them the Hundred Years Wars, the Crusades, the Arthurian legends, the legends of Charlemagne and many others. He has stated time and again that the series is more informed by the War of the Roses than based on it, but he mixed things up and let the characters and the story grow organically, meaning that he deviated from the actual historical events because, like, duh. So the outcome of the War of the Roses has no bearing on where asoiaf is going. It might be fun to parallel the two and figure out points of divergence or which character parallels which historical figure, but it’s utterly pointless to expect an outcome in the story simply because that’s how things went in the War of the Roses. The story did not precisely correspond to that historical conflict from the very start, and it’s definitely very removed from it now as Martin’s characters and story grew and his gardener approach to writing steered the story into different areas than originally planned.
Second,
I do not, for one second, believe that House Stark is doing to die off by the end of the series.
They are going to be a part of the rebuilding of Westeros past the War for the Dawn, and they will continue to be the rulers of the North. But to answer the question of inheritance (and I’m gonna stick to show canon since that’s what you’re talking about, though things are different in the books), Rickon is dead, Bran has
bequeathed his inheritance and Jon is being presented to us as the Last
Targaryen Heir (eye-roll) Um, Sansa and Arya are still there to continue
the Stark line? Sansa is currently Lady of Winterfell; upon her
marriage, she will not be taking her husband’s name but keeping hers and
passing it to her children. Ruling ladies in Westeros do continue their
family’s lines, anon, and we have several ruling ladies who passed on their names to their children and continued their House: Anya Waynwood, Arywn Oakheart, Tanda Stokeworth, Nymella Tolland, Larra Blackmont, Delonne Allyrion, and the several Dornish ruling princesses who continued House Nymeros Martell, from Nymeria’s eldest daughter with Mors Martell, to Princess Meria Martell, to the Unnamed Princess of Dorne, mother to Doran, Elia and Oberyn. So I do not really see a problem for the continuance of House Stark, even if none of the male heirs take the lordship or even survive (though again, I highly doubt the latter.)
When your dad is really your uncle, and your mum’s actually the person you though was your aunt, but you just banged your real aunt, and you have the same name as the half brother you never knew you had, but the people you thought were your half siblings are actually your cousins, and the night king is south of the wall during the biggest identity crisis Westeros has ever seen
No matter what I think about how the writers chose to write Dany’s story, no matter my reservations about how Dany has been depicted for the last three seasons or so, one thing will be always immutable: Dany does not deserve to be raped-by-deception, which is what that undercover theory frames the sex between her and Jon.
And anon, why stop at the things Dany did that you do not like? Why not list it all? Like when she got on a dragon and flew all the way to the North to save Jon and the others, like when she pledged to fight for the North before Jon bent the knee. Dany did let Jon leave without bending the knee and did not burn him or Davos when they refused to bend the knee. That does not mean I do not have problems with some of the things Dany have done because the show’s attempt to make her ~problematic~ and insistence on teasing the Mad Queen thing even after they explicitly presented Cersei as the Mad Queen made Dany inconsistent and inexplicably and randomly cruel at times with a tendency to give speeches that make her look very bad, but let’s not erase her heroics and just talk about the things we found off-putting.
But regardless of what she may or may not have done or what we thought of it, the fact remains that nothing would make such a story deserved. Sexual violence is not, and will never be, an appropriate response to anything. That’s just icky and puts the blame of the crime on the person who was violated with the implication that “if they hadn’t done X, they wouldn’t have gotten raped” which only perpetuates rape culture. No. Fuck that idea with a rusty spear. No one deserves to have that done to them, not even the villains in the story (and Dany is decidedly NOT a villain) Gosh, there is no argument on what place Cersei occupies in the narrative, but I’d still fight anyone that says that she deserved what Robert did to her. Hell no.
And to do that in the name of advancing a male character’s story? So that Jon’s character doesn’t get assassinated? Um, how is it not character assassination for Jon to be turned into a rapist? Is it honestly better for Jon to be a manipulative rapist than to have him simply fall in love? More importantly, haven’t we had enough sexual violence visited on a woman to frame the character of a man?
(And on the subject of character assassination, that was not simply a matter of Jon doing something because Dany was hot. While I’m sure that his feelings for her played a role, Jon did
not bend the knee to Dany because he liked her, he did it when he saw
for himself
that she was a queen worth bending the knee to, a queen who would put the safety of the realm above her quest for the throne. Jon did not bend the knee when she bargained with him, making his submission the price of her fighting for the North. But Dany was no longer asking for a price. She paid a price in coming to aid him, risking her life and losing a dragon in the process. She told him she’d fight for the North with no strings attached, with no expectations from him. She put the realm above the crown in the same way Stannis did when he sailed to the Wall to rescue the Night’s Watch from Mance’s army. That was an adaptation of Stannis’ speech from back when he came to the Night’s Watch’s aid, a point about how a monarch earns the crown rather than just stomping their feet demanding fealty.)
Honestly, I hate that undercover theory with a burning passion for what it does to both Dany and Jon. It victimizes Dany for absolutely no reason and makes her reward for refusing to leave Jon and the others to their fate be a cruel violation coming from someone she trusted. It turns Jon into a cruelly calculating individual concocting a plot worthy of the Lannisters from the onset of this plot, meaning that he met good faith with treachery (but apparently that’s totally fine because Dany! kept him!! a hostage!!!). It means that he deceived Dany and went on to sleep with her after she already pledged to fight for the North, and just what does that accomplish? I’ve seen it argued that perhaps Jon started off planning to use Dany but then fell in love with her which is…. Jorah Mormont’s story. Or perhaps he only noticed Dany’s feelings on Dragonstone and decided to use them for his gain…. which sound awfully similar to the JoffreyCersei method with Sansa in the first bookseason. Right. What a company for Jon to keep.
I do not think that the show is ever going there tbh. They are simply too invested in having Jon keep the moral high ground always and forever, and they are using the “uber-romatic” pairing of Lyanna and Rhaegar as a backdrop for Dany and Jon’s own romance. While such a story could be interesting and nuanced in the hands of capable writers, David and Dan are neither capable, nor particularly interested in tackling complicated relationships (see how they stripped the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar down to “they were in wuve. and Robert’s Rebellion was build on a lie. uwu”). I wouldn’t want them near such a story to be honest, if only for the sake of the safety of my laptop since I’m sure to hurl it against a wall if I had to watch what they might think is proper handling of it. They won’t need it anyway, the tension between Jon and Dany is guaranteed once Aegongate is brought to light, and Dany might just suspect Jon of playing her based on the truth of his parentage alone.
Sam speaks 