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thenightkingcometh

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“Hi! I’m new & looking for an A/reasoned opinion to a ASOIAF Q (& ur…”

there’s also bran, the male heir above rickon and sansa, who will return from the cave at some point.

I mean, Arya too will return at some point. But so far I expect this plot to involve only Jon, Sansa and Rickon because there is already established plans in each of their plots to set for this storyline. Bran’s story is extremely involved with the magical side rn that I don’t expect him to be included in this one, as opposed to someone like Jon whose arc is both magical and political, or Sansa who arc is purely political, or Rickon whose only function in the story lies in being a Stark heir. Also, both Bran and Rickon serve the same purpose of being Ned’s male legitimate child so no sense in having both for the same plot. You have Rickon with the senior claim and White Harbor’s backing, Jon with Robb’s will and Stannis, Sansa with the knights of the Vale. Three claimants, each with their powerful faction pushing their claim.

I tend to think that Bran will return after the conclusion of this plot, either right ahead of the Wall falling or concurrently with the Others’ invasion starting. At which point the politicking over who holds Winterfell would either be resolved or so far down everyone’s priorities with preparation for the war picking up.

Hello! Your blog is great, first of all. I’m curious: do you think there’s any chance of a happy ending for both the Starks and the Targaryens? I’m optimistic that the Starks will get a happy ish ending (PLEASE let them be happy, Martin!), but I feel like there’s no way both Jon and Dany can end the show happily. Thoughts on Stark restoration vs Targaryen?

That’s kind of you to say. But I think my answer took a swerve into gloomy land. Sorry!

Here’s what GRRM said about the end.

I think you need to have some hope…we all yearn for happy endings in a
sense. Myself, I’m attracted to the bittersweet ending. People ask me
how Game of Thrones is gonna end, and I’m not gonna tell them …
but I always say to expect something bittersweet in the end. You can’t just fulfill a quest and then pretend life is perfect.

That last sentence is the driving force of the ending, I believe. Throughout his writing, Martin took care to get to the core wounds and the real trauma behind “glorious quests”. The Starks wage war against the Lannisters and Dany liberates the slaves and we root for them. We root for them with everything we are. But throughout it all Martin pulls back the curtain and makes us look at the ugly side of war to understand the cost whether to our heroes or to others affected by their actions. He doesn’t leave it at the idealized concept of a righteous war but pulls us into the suffering involved and forces us to face it. To understand its effects. Wars leave scars and demons and fears behind, wars cause suffering. You don’t end a war then go on with life like all that loss didn’t wrench a part of you with it. Like Frodo in LoTR which Martin cited as one of his favorite endings. They won but Frodo was never whole again. Those scars will always be there, just like the scars of Robert’s Rebellion haunts everyone involved, sometimes to their graves. That’s been Martin’s writing ethos from the very start.

This isn’t a story where the hero goes on a righteous and glorious quest, slay the monster and then live happily ever after. That’s not a knock on those story, btw, it’s just that this story is not one of them. Martin will send his heroes on righteous and glorious quests, then he is going to make them excruciatingly aware of what it really means to be on such a quest. There is no room for romanticization here. The hero’s journey, as poor Quentyn Martell discovered, is awful in reality. It is bloody and scary and traumatizing. It chips away at you. It does not end in happily ever afters. Martin doesn’t do happily ever afters or traditional happy endings. His endings are almost always bittersweet. There is hope at the end, yes, but one tinged by loss and pain because that’s what it cost to win and the story will acknowledge it, will acknowledge the sacrifices made for the war to be won and for humanity to prevail.

My money is currently on Jon and Dany being among those sacrifices.
This fight with the Others is gonna take everything our heroes have to
push them back. That’s no simple fight; all those scary horror
manifestations that have been eluded to in legends are coming for
Westeros and humanity is going to pushed to the limit in fighting for life and survival.

There is a popular LoTR quote that many writers have used while discussing the stoyr’s endgame that’s extremely relevant, but I’m more struck by the back-end of it.

I tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved,
but not for me. It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger:
some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them
.

Jon and Dany are messianic figures with themes of death and resurrection
swirling through their arcs and both fit the “living on borrowed time”
trope. Both have steadfastly shown willingness to sacrifice themselves throughout their arcs and now they (and Tyrion) are the spearheads of a fight for life itself. That really sends the chances of them giving theirs to save
the world and all that they love sky high.

How does that bode for a Targaryen restoration? It does not. Martin has repeatedly said that he writes the human heart in conflict with itself and the books put so much stock in our choices. And what’s Dany’s heart’s desire? She wants to return home to Westeros and reclaim her ancestral seat. But Dany is not a ruler, she is a savior. Not that those are mutually exclusive but Dany’s role transcends being a queen (at least in the traditional sense of the word) to being a champion of humanity.
She is the Breaker of Chains, a liberator whose mission is to strike down the chains of servitude the Others use to enslave their victims. The conflict in Dany’s story is gonna involve turning her back on the idea of a Targaryen restoration and her ancestors’ legacy because fighting over who sits a bloody chair is worthless where there are eldritch slavers coming for them all. The real enemy is the cold and that’s where Dany comes in with her fire and her willingness to sacrifice herself that we’ve seen multiple times through her arc. Dany’s real queenship does not lie in sitting an empty throne, it lies in protecting the realm.

Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?

Dany might never sit the Iron Throne. I don’t even think there is going to be an Iron Throne at the end of the story. The closest thing we’re gonna get to a Targaryen restoration is through Young Aegon who is not even a Targaryen in all probability. Dany will come in to reclaim her place from him with fire and blood and it’s going to be devastating and terrible. But it’ll also destroy the symbol of the futile political fight over an ugly chair that’s been leeching resources and attention away from the real fight. Dany’s queenship won’t be born of a Targaryen restoration but of breaking the chains the Others want to shackle humanity with and it is highly possible that she’ll sacrifice herself to do it, sacrifice her desire to rule Westeros in favor of ensuring that there is a Westeros to rule, even if she doesn’t get to do it. 

As for the Starks, I think I’ve mostly said my piece about their chances at restoration ( 1, 2.) I do think they are surviving the War for the Dawn except for Jon (wellll, Rickon is one big question mark for me.) But I’m quite confident that Bran, Sansa and Arya are going to survive and be part of the rebuilding of Westeros after the devastation of the War for the Dawn. They are the hope at the end of the story, the embodiment of the dream of spring and the ones preserving and honoring
the memory

of those who fell for humanity. I’m afraid I don’t have specific predictions for them post-war beyond that.

“I do have some issues with how GRRM chose to frame Sansa in AGOT”. Could you expand on that? What are those issues?

maidenoftheforestlight:

omgellendean:

maidenoftheforestlight:

Well I’ve reblogged quite a few metas on this subject and written a bit about it myself and I’d love to link some of that here but… how to find that stuff on my blog without slogging through months of irrelevant posting? Hmm… I really  need to organise this blog better… 

Assuming I don’t manage to find the relevant posts (or at least some of them) then I’ll just say that my issues with Sansa in AGOT have to do with how GRRM (apparently) originally conceived of her character and how much of that actually remained in the final product; that is to say, she was originally intended to be a foil to Arya and the one Stark kid who caused problems in the happy family group dynamic. This was apparently because GRRM thought it wouldn’t be realistic for all the kids to get along perfectly and for there to be no internal strife in the Stark family at all… but isn’t it odd that out of all the kids he chose the two girls to set at odds with one another? And isn’t it doubly odd that of these two girls it is the more stereotypically feminine one who was initially created to be that little “problem” in the family dynamic? Robb and Jon could easily have been the warring siblings instead, no? Or maybe Sansa could have been a boy instead and Arya could’ve had a male foil to argue with… but instead…

Sansa, despite clearly becoming a well rounded character in her own right by the final draft of AGOT, still retains quite a bit of that original character sketch. She is written to be a foil to Arya and to cause complications for her family due to her relationship with Joffrey. While with close reading – keeping in mind the social mores of her society and the way she has been raised – Sansa’s actions and beliefs about her world are quite understandable, she is not generally written in such a way that suggests the author meant to endear her to the reader… Contrast to the way Arya is written (because Sansa is her foil and GRRM wants us to compare them in this book!); introduced as a plucky underdog who challenges the status quo. We are meant to immediately identify with, like and root for Arya, and we do. We are not meant to immediately identify with, like and root for Sansa. 

We are introduced to Arya first and Sansa makes Arya feel bad about herself by being good at everything and prettier and getting her in trouble and… you get the point. Even though 9 year old Arya has biases, and we as readers should understand that, the mere fact that our introduction to Sansa comes through her POV already gives the reader a bias against Sansa on Arya’s behalf because that’s all we know about her! There’s also the fact that the quickest way to get your readership to identify with and like a character within a historical setting is to give them the values and opinions of a more modern person… and we get quite a bit of that with Arya, what with her challenging of gender norms and disregard for class and rank. We don’t get that short cut with Sansa. 

 When we actually meet Sansa in her own POV she is once again acting in her role as the foil… it’s the incident at the Trident where Sansa fails to stand up to Joffrey for Arya and Mycah the butcher’s boy and then doesn’t tell the king what really happened and “gets Lady and Mycah killed”, to hear some fans tell it (never mind her reasonable reasons for being confused about what to do and refusing to speak). It’s not a glowing moment for her here and tbh… there really is only one real glowing moment for Sansa in AGOT (before Ned’s imprisonment/death that is); the moment where she feels empathy for Sandor Clegane, overcomes her fear, and offers him the comfort he needs. 

Other than this, her POV mostly focuses in on the trivialities of her interests and concerns, on how very little she actually understands the adult world around her, and we hardly see her interact with others in a positive way. Again… other than Sandor Clegane! She and Arya bicker, her relationship with Ned is somewhat strained since the Trident, and you get the vague impression that of his children, Sansa is probably the one he is the least accustomed to spending time with or talking to (we get no scene of parental bonding with Sansa, unlike Arya) and even Jeyne – Jeyne who is supposed to be Sansa’s best friend – we get no scenes of them having fun together, braiding each other’s hair, gossiping about cute boys, playing cyvasse… nada. Oh we get scenes of them talking, but it’s mostly in scenes which, again, are there to place Sansa in her role as the foil; demonstrating her naivety and ignorance of the dangers at court. The actual fun times they have together as friends, the actual comfort and happiness they give each other, well we’re told about this in a few stray lines here and there… we don’t actually ever “see” it! 

And that’s important! That’s the stuff that makes you like a character! But GRRM didn’t want to show us Sansa being fun and a caring friend in AGOT or even showing off any of the things she is reportedly so good at (she does actually show off some of these things; she shows she is naturally apt at diplomacy and has a good memory for important persons, houses and sigils and rank in this book… but this is all quite subtly introduced. Her cleverness is not meant to be something the reader immediately picks up on). He didn’t particularly want us to start sympathizing with her until near the end of the novel… and it shows. Sansa’s more positive character traits are de-emphasized by the author for most of AGOT and this, more than anything she actually does in this particular novel, is why so many fans come away seriously disliking her as a character

(imho of course); many with the claim that she has no positive traits!

This ties into my larger issues with GRRM’s writing of women in general. He definitely treats his POV female characters like people who deserve to be just as well developed and complex as his male characters, and I appreciate that! However, he seems to have problems with depicting women’s relationships with other women. That is to say, if he can avoid female friendships, he does… at least in the early novels (things may be looking up based on more recent stuff). We get great male friendships, and male/female friendships, but when it came  to showing women who genuinely like each other interacting, GRRM just… didn’t go there at the beginning. Yeah, you’ve got Arya and Sansa not getting along, and Sansa and Jeyne’s friendship happening mostly offscreen but surely there must be more women who can be getting along… right? Well… no. 

Catelyn seems to have no female friends or companions at all, even from memory (which is ridiculous!) and her relationship with Lysa is extremely strained. Later she meets Brienne and while their relationship is a positive one for them both, it is more that of a Lady and her sworn shield than of friends. Cersei has no real friends at all, let alone female ones… she actually killed her childhood “bestfriend”. Margaery and the Tyrell cousins were not real friends to Sansa, Arya’s best friends and travelling companions are all male (albeit she does have a brief but very sweet interaction with Lady Smallwood) and Dany’s female companions are all servants to her. All in all, the situation with regards to sisterhood and female friendship in ASOIAF ain’t great. 

Topping this off, there’s also the fact that while GRRM’s understanding of what medieval noblewomen actually got up to in a day’s work is better than GOT’s, there are yet still some suggestions that feminine gendered activities are quite trivial and frivolous, and these suggestions are, again, most evident in Sansa and Arya’s AGOT chapters where they, again, serve to highlight Sansa as the silly, blinkered, girly-girl, to Arya’s rebellious, open-minded tom boy. 

To sum it up, it is of great significance that Arya, who we are meant to identify with and like, is a tom boy and Sansa, her foil, is extremely feminine. The negative aspects of Sansa’s personality, the ones being highlighted above her more positive qualities in AGOT, are therefore associated with that femininity because her negative traits are framed in contrast to Arya’s positive ones, and Arya’s interests and behaviour are more stereotypically masculine. I liked Sansa despite all of this because, paying attention while reading her chapters and fed up with trope of cool tomboys vs annoying girly girls, I was actually able to see the subtle allusions to there being more to Sansa than what the author was choosing to place on the surface. However, I understand how a reader who has no inclination to pay such close attention while reading her chapters could easily be put off from her character. GRRM did that on purpose… and I just don’t think it’s fair to the character who otherwise might have been given more of a chance by so many readers who, even now, still disregard her value to the story. 

I always felt that Arianne and her relationships with Tyene and Elia were GRRM’s attempt to introduce extremely feminine female character in positive light since the start as well as to write more fleshed out female friendship. 

I mean, a noble girl, very pretty, very invested into finding a proper husband, who is childhood friends with another feminine girl of lesser status, and they really care for each other and spend all the time together, and whose storyline is mainly political. And then there is her tomboy-ish “little sister”, who loves horses and ignores rules and is definitely not a lady. But this time it’s girly girl who is portrayed more sympathetically and from whose PoV we see everything from the start. Of course, Arianne is older than Sansa, and is more open and bold, but still, I see some parallels there.

I would say he did a better work this time, despite some problems staying here too (GRRM clearly doesn’t know how write girls spending their time if they are not  with boys, and by gods, he really overly sexualises his Dornish characters). Though Arianne is still dismissed as stupid, boring and “100% going to die next book” by a big chunk of auditory, and I wonder if it is a writing’s problem or a reader bias, too.

The positive representation of female friendship with the Dornish characters was somewhat soured for me by how overtly sexualised they are… (And after hearing the prejudiced stereotypes about wanton dornish women I was rather hoping GRRM would actually prove them wrong… He didn’t…).
I think he’s doing a bit better with Sansa and Myranda’s developing friendship, but of course that is also dampened by us not quite knowing whether Myranda is friend or foe to Sansa yet. I hope she is, and that Mya is too, because them all being friends would be a great addition to the novels. A group of female friends, made up of well developed characters, including a main POV, where we actually see them interacting in a positive way and being supportive of each other despite their differences in ASOIAF? Sign me up.
I also have hopes for cool friendships when Sansa and Arya meet Brienne (not sure who’ll meet her first at this point…I once thought it would be Sansa, but now I’m actually leaning towards Arya), and of course, I think the Sansa and Arya reunion and the development of their relationship from there should be great.
Reader bias is definitely an issue but it is exacerbated by the author in this case. GRRM, especially writing AGOT in the time he was, would’ve known the misogynistic mentality that a lot of readers would come to his books with (whether they intended to or not) and therefore known that they would take many of the casually misogynistic attitudes of his characters at face value, especially when he, as the author, does not do much to prove them wrong in his framing of feminine female characters.
It’s a very similar situation to what is going on with the Dornish… Racist Westerosi from other parts of the seven kingdoms claim that they are libidinous and have very “exotic” views on sexuality (and there’s definitely a lot of exotic erotic fetishization going on with the Dornish), but it’s hard to say GRRM is criticizing this kind of stereotyping when he engages in exotic erotic with his writing of the Dornish himself!
Think how different it would’ve been if the Dornish actually had a very conservative culture and thought that other Westerosi were the oversexed animalistic ones…
That actually would have better mirrored the medieval/Renaissance world GRRM is drawing from as Western Europeans often thought of Eastern and Southern peoples as having fiery passions and unusual sexual appetites but foreign travelers into Europe often thought european cultures were more sexually permissive. It’s all perspective and bias. Authors can do great things with challenging the readers’ biases… But here GRRM sometimes falters and leans into old stereotypes himself.

And the problem actually surpasses the limited presence of positive
female friendship in the text to being the overwhelmingly negative
female relationships in the text. GRRM tends to frame most of the
female/female relationships in his story in a really negative light which, combined by the very few examples of good female/female relationships, makes it as if GRRM doesn’t know how to write female relationships that isn’t immersed in jealousy and conflict, and hits too close to the “catty women” stereotype for my taste. As discussed above, the only two girl Starklings are the ones in direct conflict with one another, and it’s specially peculiar when compared to how the text deals with Jon’s relationship with Robb. The latter has its share of conflict and tension at its core but Martin goes to great lengths to frame it as a positive affectionate relationship that is very important to both Jon and Robb. Jon repeatedly describes Robb as his best friend and his thoughts on his brother are mostly loving and warm, while Robb demonstrates absolute trust in Jon in defiance of society’s dominating prejudice and distrust of bastard. Robb is constantly present on Jon’s mind in a way that screams affection. Sansa and Arya, on the other hand, mostly think of each other while thinking of the Stark family as a whole, and more often than not their thoughts are accompanied by “even Sansa” or “even Arya” tacked at the end like an afterthought. Their positive memories of each other are rare and clipped, and often goes to frame the warmth of their childhood at Winterfell more than their specific relationship.

That contrast goes to frame how different GRRM handles feelings of jealousy in male vs female friendships. Jon is jealous of Robb but that jealousy never defines their relationship, but look at how jealousy defines Lysa’s relationship with Catelyn, or Cersei’s with Melara Hetherspoon, both of which boiled down to jealousy over a boy, which is another maddening tendency of Martin – to have a male presence as the source of the tension. Cersei and Margaery’s conflict is a fight over control of Tommen, which Marg lays out explicitly. Hell, that goes back historically to Visenya and Rhaenys Targaryen and their marriage to Aegon. Even Sansa’s budding friendship with Myranda Royce (which I have hopes for) introduces a potential conflict in Myranda’s jealousy of Sansa over Harry Hardyng before the text even builds the relationships. Martin quite literally introduced the conflict before he did anything with the relationship. It’s like two women can not be friends without fighting over a guy in some capacity in Martin’s world. 

And if that element is not present, other sources of conflict that define the relationship exist. Alysane Mormont and Asha Greyjoy have some vague friendly vibes that I very much enjoy but that are still immersed in a long historical conflict, especially for a Mormont of Bear Island who grew up with the threat of the ironborn. There is a distinct vibe of Melisandre replacing Selyse as Stannis’ true queen, and their relationship is permeated by fanaticism. Cersei is a case study in negative female-female interactions which dominate her narrative. There’s a built-in feeling of jealousy and competitiveness in the YMBQ prophecy. She kills the girl she describes as a friend for having feelings for Jaime at the tender age of ten (ffs, GRRM.) She is condescending and cruel to Sansa. She is in a perpetual fight with Margaery and Olenna. The way she talks about Lysa Arryn drips with disdain (she repeatedly refers to her as a “cow”) Her thoughts on pretty much every single woman she deigns to think about are appalling. Even the two not-glaringly-hostile somewhat-friendly relationships she has with Taena Merryweather and Falyse Stokeworth are completely fucked up: she rapes the first in an imitation of the abuse of power Robert constantly subjected her to, and the entire relationship is a lie because Taena is a double-agent who has been playing her from the start, and she sends the second to a fate worse than death by giving her to Qyburn. That’s a long list of awful relationships that only get intercepted by some good ones like Sansa and Jeyne Poole (which still has its problems), or the one between Margaery and her cousins (which has shades of the Tyrell Family Unit’s approach to politics but that remains genuine enough, though we only get to hear some scattered reporting on it.), or the short friendly anecdotes like the ones between Arya and Lady Smallwood, or Catelyn and Dacey and Maege Mormont.

And of course, there is the glaring contrast in how Martin fleshes out female relationships vs male relationships, which intersects with the problem of the Dead Ladies Club in some places. We know a lot about the relationship between Aerys and Steffon, and Aerys and Tywin, but nothing about Rhaella’s relationship with the Unnamed Princess of Dorne or Joanna Lannister. Arthur Dayne is Rhaegar’s bestest friend and confidant but we have no idea what relationship Elia had with Ashara Dayne. To go back in history, Jaehaerys I had a fruitful and long friendship with Septon Barth but we hear nothing about a similar female friend for Alysanne. Orys Baratheon was Aegon’s right hand but Visenya and Rhaenys have no significant female friends (and a bitter rivalry between them). Ned and Robert are friends, and Oberyn and Willas Tyrell are pen-pals, but Ellaria and Catelyn are alone. It goes on and on.

In the case of Arianne and her cousins, I have to say that I also do not like how Martin’s framing of Dorne as an outlier in the text also gives the implication that good female relationships are also an outlier in Westeros. I mean, it’s a positive view of Dorne (and god knows that I’ll take every positive attribute to Dorne in the face of the excessive exotic-eroticism of Martin’s text), but I also do not like how that frames positive female relationships as something unusual to the ordinary Westerosi woman outside of Dorne. I agree with what’s been said above about the treatment of the Dornish characters and it’s something that I can’t even give Martin the benefit of the doubt for, or argue that maybe he meant to criticize the stereotyping of Dorne when he is the one who fueled it in the first place. I’m not about to wave away reader bias but I do agree that Martin is culpable. The dismissal of Elia in fandom? Has roots in how GRRM dismisses her in the text. The stereotyping of the Dornish characters? Well, our first introduction to a Dornish character (which happened in book 3) is Oberyn Martell, and Martin infuses it with references to threesomes and brothels and has Oberyn describe Ellaria as a lusty wench. Our overall view of Oberyn is colored by Tyrion’s own opinions since he is our POV character which is not ideal at all, but that gets exacerbated when we meet Arianna through the incredibly racist Arys Oakheart and his “she is Dornish” before we hear from Arianne herself. And though the relationship between Arianne and her cousins is strong, Martin chooses to inject a sexual vibe in the tidbit about Tyene and Arianne having a sexual encounter with Drey at a young age while at the same time having Arianne reflect on how Tyene was her almost sister (and I just can’t with how that builds a connection to Cersei here, the one sleeping with her brother and who also had a sexually-tinged friendship with Taena in the very same book. The dreadfulness and dysfunction of Cersei’s experiences gives an unavoidable negative attachment to Arianne’s own.) Nym was in bed with the Fowler twins (both girls, which along with the TyeneArianne thing, makes this more of a “oooh, women having sex with each other” than a positive handling of polyamory) when the news about Oberyn arrived, Elia Sand is so sexualized it’s ridiculous, it’s all just very uncomfortable and stereotypical and lazy.

And of course, while all this goes on, we are introduced to the 18 years old virgin Quentyn and his unsexualized friendship with his companions. Just to hammer the point home.

So to sum up, the state of female relationships in the text is:

  1. Don’t exist/don’t warrant mentioning.
  2. Are built on competitiveness and jealousy often over a guy.
  3. If they do exist, they either have a needless sexual component with negative associations,
  4. Or are very brief andor not properly fleshed out.

ringjo:

Day 6 of Inktober: SWORD. “First lesson… Stick ‘em with the pointy end.” Jon Snow had the blacksmith of Winterfell make him a sword. And before parting with Arya, he gave the sword to her as a present. It’s so light and skinny that it may not cut a man’s head off, but it can definitely poke a man full of holes if she’s quick enough. Hence the name: Needle. #inktober #inktober2017 #got #aryastark #jonsnow #needle #nymeria

assuming we had an AU where ned stark had “southron ambitions” for his children, what would he have had in mind? where would he have fostered them or who would he have wanted to marry them off to? how do you think the stark kids would have felt about something like that? would it have been as harmful for them as it was for, say, lysa tully and lyanna stark?

Contrary to popular sentiment that views ambition as an inherently negative character trait, it is not bad or harmful in and of itself. It’s only when people prioritize it above all else that it becomes bad; when they start stepping on others or putting them into dangerous or unwanted situation or denying them even their governance over their own bodies that it becomes harmful. To this effect, Rickard Stark’s problem wasn’t that he had ambitions for his children or that he looked to the south for alliance, it was that he forced Lyanna into a betrothal that she did not want and a marriage that would have made her miserable (and probably abused). Hoster Tully’s problem was not that he wanted a high marriage for his daughter, it was that he believed that the advancement of his House and his reputation was worth violating her body autonomy and putting her through the physical and emotional trauma of a forced abortion.

In that vein, Ned’s character is a very important factor in this conversation. This AU changes his trauma responses which is what drives a lot of his decisions in OTL; Ned’s desire to be left in peace in the North and his ill feelings towards the south was born out of his trauma during the rebellion, so was his inclination to keep his family around him and refusing to foster out any of his children after he lost his father and siblings in short order so I gotta say it’s a little hard to imagine a Ned who has “southron ambitions” since it was those ambitions that ended with almost all of his family dying on him before he was even 20. Why do I care about this when I could just rattle some options for fostering and marriage alliances? Because Ned’s overall personality is an integral part of his decision-making process when it comes to his politics. For example, would he be more open to a position in King’s Landing in this scenario? Would he have an eye on Robert’s children as potential matches for his children? Note that an ambitious individual with Ned’s circumstances could have capitalized on his connections to the new ruling regime post-Robert’s Rebellion, and gotten honors and high offices lavished on him by his eager royal foster brother, which would have landed him in King’s Landing with a seat on the small council and great sway in Robert’s government. But Ned didn’t because of a mix of a psychological wish to leave the south after what happened to his family, and a necessity for keeping his distance from Robert because of Jon. An ambitious individual would have actively pursued a match between Sansa and the dynastically excellent Joffrey, but Ned was wary and grudgingly accepting at first, then went to the extent of talking about breaking the betrothal before he guessed the truth about Joffrey’s parentage. Ned was not your average feudal lord who saw his children as marital pawns and instruments of alliances first, and whose focus in a betrothal was the amount of power it could bring him above the well-being of his children. 

That is all to say that it’s a bit more complicated than just figuring out where Ned would foster his children and who he’d marry them to, because I have to find a balance between what southron ambitions means to Ned and the changes this bring as he perhaps seeks to be more involved in politics to the south, and the fact that this was a man who defied the social norms of his time by caring about the character of the people marrying his daughters and not wanting his children to be betrothed young. Ned was a man who cared more about his children’s well-being than he did any political gain. Those are elements that I can’t see going anywhere, otherwise Ned would lose the core of who he is as a person and wouldn’t be Ned at all.

Following that, I don’t think there is a strong possibility for Ned to foster out his children, even if he has political interests dependent on that fostering. For one, while fostering is a very useful method of building alliances, Ned could easily follow in the footsteps of his father-in-law and rely on marital alliances instead. Indeed, I think the chances of this are high, both because of Ned’s desire to keep his children around him in Winterfell and because of Jon Snow. That Jon gets to grow up in Winterfell under Ned’s tutelage and with his children is important to Ned, but it’s not something he could swing if he is to attempt to foster away his children with Catelyn. Keep in mind that Catelyn consistently tried to get Jon sent away so if Ned was to foster out any of her children, she wouldn’t have budged in demanding that Jon be sent away as well. After all, Ned couldn’t very well demand that Jon stay but send Catelyn’s children away. It’d be a major point of criticism and wonder if the Lord of Winterfell scatters his trueborn children but keeps his bastard son by his side, which would have serious political implications if Ned is seen to favor his bastard son over his trueborn one (and the Blackfyre rebellions were on Catelyn’s mind as it was.) So fostering is out unless Ned is prepared to send Jon away.

As for the matter of the betrothals, an eye towards the advancement of his House and Ned’s own personal priorities aren’t the only considerations here; he also needs to take into account the reaction of his bannermen when deciding on matches for his children. With the memory of the disastrous results of Lord Rickard’s own southron ambitions still in living memory, and given the fact that the Northern lords have been deprived of a Stark match from the previous generation, in addition to their natural dislike of the south, it is politically prudent for Ned to marry more than one child to the North to appease his bannermen and avoid unwanted discord in the North. Robb, in particular, is a lock-down for a Northern match, because (1) he is the heir and thus the greatest marital prize the Starks have to offer and so (2) his marriage to the North would go a long way in satisfying the Northmen more than any of his siblings, and (3) with a southron mother whom he favored in looks, marrying Robb to the south risks him being branded as “too-southron” in the eyes of his prickly future bannermen, a rather unfavorable image for the future Lord of Winterfell to have, especially in the presence of the Stark-looking, uber-Northern Jon Snow, or so Catelyn might figure. Of the possible matches, I’d say Wylla Manderly is the most likely choice. The Manderlys are the richest and most powerful Stark vassals which makes them the most impressive match within the North, which would fit Ned’s ambitions nicely in this scenario without being a too controversial match. The Manderlys may be Reacher expatriates, but they have been in the North for over a thousand years and have provided brides for House Stark twice before. The other potential brides within Robb’s age range are Meera Reed and Alys Karstark. The former might appeal personally to Ned considering his friendship with Howland, but an alliance with Greywater Watch offers little in terms of political power and I don’t know about Catelyn’s reaction since crannogmen aren’t exactly esteemed in the Seven Kingdoms or even in the North itself, though Ned’s personal regard for Howland would hold weight for her. Alys makes for a more traditional marriage partner for a Stark since Karstarks have been Stark brides thrice before, and we know that her father had an eye on this match since she and Robb were children. She also offers a seamless affirmation of Robb’s Northern roots due to her Stark blood.

As much as Robb is more likely to marry to the North, Sansa is almost certainly getting married to the south in this au. Unfortunately, Joffrey Baratheon is the most impressive dynastic match in Westeros so he is still the most likely choice. But here’s where possible changes might prevent that betrothal: if Ned is more involved in southern politics in this au in a way that brings him to King’s Landing if even occasionally, chances are he’d have some contact with Joffrey and be even more wary of a match with the crown prince than he was in OTL. Ned cared about the character of his daughters’ bridegrooms so if he has a better grasp on Joffrey’s personality before Robert suggests the match and he feels he has to accept it, he might try to broker another betrothal, though the chances of that are quite low since Robert suggests the match with Joffrey when Sansa was only eleven and Ned would not betroth her before that. Poor dear most likely still gets stuck with Joffrey. Who else would be suitable for Sansa? Hmm, one of her uncle’s future bannermen might be a good choice, if not especially advantageous since House Stark is already married to the Riverlands’ ruling family. But someone like Patrick Mallister remains a nice option. Fandom is quite fond of Willas Tyrell as a match for Sansa but while Willas is an impressive dynastic match, he is significantly older in a way that I don’t think Ned would want, not to mention that Ned didn’t have much (or any) relationship with Mace Tyrell. The heirs of the most prominent Vale families also fall under the too old umbrella. (And no, a match to Harry Hardyng can’t happen since it’d be a statement from Ned and Catelyn that they do not expect Robert Arryn to survive which is a poor message to send in normal circumstances but even more so in light of the familial connection between the Starks and Arryns. As for Robert Arryn, he is a bit on the younger side for Sansa.) 

Arya, I can see go either way. A good dynastic match for her would be Robert Arryn. He is only a couple of years younger than her, and her cousin besides. If she is betrothed to Robert and Sansa to Joffrey, that would be quite the neat affirmation of the Tully-Stark-Baratheon-Arryn alliance. Downside is that if Ned witnesses Lysa’s deterioration and her encouragement of Robert’s dependency on her, which would be quite disturbing for him, he might not be too keen on the match. Robert is also very ill, which would raise concerns about his survival, or even his ability to father children in light of his parents’ fertility problems. But I can also see Ned marrying Arya to the North. She’d certainly prefer a match closer to her family rather than being sent south. Giving a Stark bride to a Northern house would also be a good idea since it’s been generations since a Stark bride was last married to the North (we have to go back to the generation of Lord Beron Stark, Rickard’s great grandfather to find a Stark bride who married to the North, though we do not know the marital fates of Beron’s daughters Alysanne and Berena. Still, even if we assume they married Northmen (probable), that still leaves a three-generation gap in which the only two available main-line Stark brides were married to a Royce and betrothed to a Baratheon respectively – and the two known non-main-line Stark ladies married a Stark (Ned’s mother Lyarra) and a Rogers from the Stormlands (his aunt Branda)). The two heirs within Arya’s age range are Cley Cerwyn and Jojen Reed, not as impressive of a dynastic match as an Arryn or even some of the other more powerful Northern Houses, but Cley has the advantage of proximity to Winterfell (only half a day’s ride away making them frequent visitors of Winterfell) which would certainly appeal to Arya, while Jojen has Howland’s friendship with Ned going for him, though sending her daughter to the swamps of the Neck would not go well with Catelyn, I reckon. Another choice that might be a middle ground between what Arya might prefer and what Catelyn and Ned want for their daughter is Brynden Blackwood, a match that wouldn’t be disliked by the Northern lords due to House Blackwood’s Northern origins and that might appeal to Arya for the shared cultural and religious origins.

Bran is another I see Ned and Cat planning on a southern match for given his desire to be a knight and fascination by chivalry and stories about knighthood. Known noble ladies in Bran’s age bracket are limited though so this is a bit hard. Myrcella Baratheon obviously, but a Northern second son isn’t an impressive match for a princess and Cersei is sure to object (and it definitely would not happen if SansaJoffrey is a go). Shireen Baratheon is a possibility as the heiress to Dragonstone, the daughter of the Master of Ships who Ned respects and the king’s niece, except Stannis resents Ned, Dragonstone isn’t the most bountiful seat (if still a definite improvement on the Northern holdfast Bran was promised), the relationship between Stannis and Robert is fraught, and why go for an alliance with Stannis if one is assured with Robert? Bethany Blackwood is another possibility that fits Bran’s shift towards the old gods, and would be received favorably by the Northmen as a Stark match. Jonos Bracken has daughters but 1) I hate that guy, 2) we don’t know how old his daughters are and 3) in a choice between Bracken and Blackwood, you bet everything that Ned would go for the old gods-worshipping, Northern-blooded Blackwoods who he counts as kin. 

As for Rickon, who the hell knows. Lyanna Mormont is a fan favorite, but no matter how much I love the Mormont ladies, they are not good dynastic matches. House Mormont is impoverished and no one knows the identity of the father(s) of Maege’s girls, fathered by a bear as she claims. The kid’s age also means that possible brides for him probably hadn’t even been born yet when Ned was killed, and the only person within his age range that we know of is Erena Glover. So really, we all say Erena Glover because we don’t have any other choice in the North, much less the south. But to discuss Erena as match, it’s important to note House Glover is a masterly House, not a lordly one so not a lot of political advantage there. However, Rickon is the youngest of five so that allows for more leeway in picking his match than his older siblings, and it would not be the first time a Stark took a Glover to wife. On the upside, the Glovers have shown consistent unflinching loyalty to House Stark across multiple generations, and there is also a rebellion-forged personal connection between the two houses with Ethan Glover being the sole survivor of Brandon’s entourage and one of Ned’s companions that died trying to rescue Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. 

bitchfromtheseventhhell:

The Kings and Queens of Winter (original)



Their father once said that in winter, they must protect one another, keep each other warm, share their strengths.  So they shared their strength, and their crown as well.



Brandon, King of Winter
↳ King Brandon was King Robb’s true heir, and Lord Eddard’s before him.  When the crown passed to him, it was he that bade his siblings share its responsibilities with him.  Though some of the lords bannermen of House Stark thought this meant that Bran–a cripple since the age of seven–was weak, they soon learned the strength of the decision.  A true king of winter, Brandon said, is one who prepares for winter, not just endures it.  And the best way to prepare for winter was to make sure that all needs were being met, and thus that each was given the full attention of a member of his house.  (It is also said that when there was strife in the North, King Brandon knew about it long before word officially reached Winterfell.  He was blessed by the Old Gods, it was said, with magical sight and hearing, and understood the language of brooks and trees.)

Arya, Queen of Justice
↳ Queen Arya took it upon herself to protect the smallfolk.  She had seen, she told her brothers and sister, their suffering and lived it during the War of the Five Kings, when Lannister and Stark warred in the riverlands.  She had seen what evil men could do when left unchecked and found such evil intolerable in the lands of her blood.  When justice was needed, it was Queen Arya who rode out from Winterfell.  Though songs are sung of Queen Arya’s justice, it was known that her mercy was far more powerful.  Justice, she had been known to say, was nothing without mercy–true mercy, the gift of mercy.  Though far more celebrated for lives she took in the name of her house, her justice was not merely the enforcement of the law but the weighing of it.  If she heard a man’s final words and thought he did not deserve to die, he did not die by her blade.  (Though there were songs sung of Arya’s justice and her mercy, the more celebrated songs are ones of magic.  The most creative of these songs are ones that say she wears the skin of a direwolf and heads a pack of thousands.  Such songs are songs, however, and should never be misconstrued for fact.)

Jon, King of Peace
↳ King Jon was not a Stark, though when the doom of the world was nigh, the lords of the North crowned him king.  He gave his crown to Brandon, Lord Eddard’s trueborn son, when the war ended, and King Brandon shared it with him in return, calling him brother though they shared neither father nor mother.  King Jon fought for the living, and fought for peace, and though he was known as the king in the north who led armies in battle, he knew success by how infrequently he was called upon to fight.  When Jon was home, the realm knew peace; when he rode forth, it would know peace again soon.  (There were whispers that King Jon could not be killed for he had no beating heart inside his body.  Any wound he took remained with him until the time of his passing.  Such tales, however, could not possibly be true for what man can live without a heart?  And while it is known that King Jon rode a dragon into battle at least once in defense of the North, that he had no heartbeat could not possibly be true.)

Sansa, Queen of Prosperity
↳ Queen Sansa learned coin from Lord Baelish, who helped her return to the North following a period of captivity in King’s Landing.  If Lord Baelish was one of the more clever masters of coin that the realm had ever seen, under his tutelage, Queen Sansa came to know the power of gold and markets–vital to the recovery of the North following a long war and a longer winter.  Queen Sansa knew when sternness was required, but the realm knew her to have a generous hand, and through her guidance the North came to know prosperity again.  Artisans flocked to Winterfell, for Queen Sansa dearly loved music, and bakers competed in making the best lemon cakes for her.  (Rumors plagued Queen Sansa for most of her days that Lord Baelish’s untimely demise–an illness that tore through him and slew him in his sleep–was wrought from poison she slipped into his glass of Arbor Gold.  Rumors of poison have followed Queen Sansa ever since the death of Joffrey Baratheon, and thus cannot be trusted to hold any merit at all.)

Rickon, King of Reaping
↳ King Rickon was the youngest of his siblings, and barely more than a babe when his parents died.  He lived his early days among the people, and in fear that Boltons or Greyjoys would find him and slay him in his sleep.  Though many believed that he had died at Theon Greyjoy’s hands when the Prince of Salt and Rock took Winterfell, it soon became known that Greyjoy had slain two farmer’s boys and passed them off for the young princes of Winterfell.  Though King Rickon was likely too young to remember such an event, he was known to mention it often in his work, for he turned himself to the reaping every autumn when the harvest moon rose, making sure that no farmer felt unable to tend to his fields, and that the North was prepared for the oncoming winter.  (As with his brothers and sisters, there are flights of fancy that have entered the realm of myth for King Rickon as well.  If Queen Arya headed a pack of a thousand wolves, it is said that King Rickon wore the skin of a great black wolf that would use his size and strength to protect the smallfolk from smaller packs who would set their eyes on livestock.  Such tales are merely tales, though, for no man can wear the skin of a wolf.)