What do you think would have been Jon’s story if he had been a girl ?

It’s really difficult to speculate on the full trajectory of Jon’s story if he’d been a girl; the one part that I can apply the change with any level of certainty is girl!Jon’s childhood in Winterfell. Certainly, Catelyn would always resent any bastard of Ned’s that gets installed in Winterfell and given the same treatment as her own trueborn children, but there would be very little chance for a girl!Jon (let’s call her Jo) to ever pose any dynastic threat to Catelyn’s line. Meaning that Catelyn’s early days in Winterfell would not be haunted by the thought that there is even the slightest possibility that Ned might prefer the Stark-looking bastard son that he clearly loved so well to be his heir over her own Tully-looking Robb like in OTL, neither would she continuously fear that her husband’s bastard could challenge her children’s claim and press his own claim to Winterfell against her own children – because while an acknowledged male bastard who takes after his father and is clearly favored by him could manage to gain support for his legally weak claim, virtually no lord in Westeros would ever back the claim of a bastard girl against her trueborn brothers.

Though that does not mean Catelyn would be any warmer to Jo, she probably would not try to systematically push her out of Winterfell as insistently as she had her male counterpart. Her resentment of Jo’s Stark looks might also get tempered to an extent by Arya’s birth, as opposed to OTL where Catelyn continued to resent that none of her sons favored their father and wished so bad to give Ned a son that looked like him. On the downside, Jo would not be able to avoid Catelyn as much as her male counterpart was able to; her gender would put her under Catelyn’s direct control so to speak since Catelyn was the one responsible of supervise the education of the girls. This, I’d imagine, would allow Catelyn to restrict Jo’s education in the feminine arts because no way is she giving Jo an identical education to her trueborn sisters the way Jon received an education on par with Robb’s in OTL. Catelyn’s control of that part of the household would also allow her to emphasize Jo’s status and her trueborn sisters’ superiority to her pretty much all the time.

It’s unknown what plans Ned might have for Jo’s future in this scenario. At 14, Jo would be old enough for a girl for Ned to start having some concrete plans for her, since marriage is the obvious option for her considering how limited the options for bastard girls are in Westeros. So Ned probably would have attempted to make her a good match to secure her future, though the degree of success is speculative and dependent on several unknown factors. At age 14, Jo would not be too young for a betrothal like Ned felt Sansa was in OTL, and while bastards are at an automatic disadvantage in marriage (and Jo would be at even more disadvantage than canon Jon whose gender could have afforded him a nice political standing by Robb’s side, significantly improving his marriage prospects), the example of Alayne Stone shows that their marital prospects can expand significantly under the right circumstances and given the right incentive. Now, Jo would not be without attractive qualities: raised as a Stark in all but name; known as a favored daughter of the Lord of Winterfell who loved her enough to commit a major social faux pas for her; possessing of Lyanna’s wild beauty, Jo could be a nice match for a third or a fourth son, or a minor noble that wants an in with Ned. A Stark, even a bastard Stark, is nothing to frown at after all, and with Ned almost certainly willing to provide a dowry, Jo’s prospects could be relatively good.

Beyond that general idea of Jo’s future, I simply can not begin to speculate how her story’s trajectory changes because the butterfly effects are endless. it starts from the very first chapter of the series: it was Jon Snow who convinced Ned to let the Starklings keep the direwolves after he already refused Robb and Bran in OTL. If Jon is born a girl, his female counterpart would not be present for Gared’s execution, and thus would not be there to make a plea for the direwolves’ lives: where does that leave Arya when Joffrey draws steel on her without Nymeria to protect her from his manic rage? Where does that leave Catelyn and Bran without Summer to kill Joffrey’s assassin? What happens between Ned and Robert if (when) Joffrey hurts Arya? What happens to the War for the Dawn without Bran? It’s not only Jon’s story that would be hard to follow in light of that change, the entire narrative would change and we would be talking about a drastically different story.

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​ @samwpmarleau replied to your post: What goes down if Cersei married Rhaegar? Is the…

This is great, but the quibble that I have with it is about Aegon. Why would he search out Lyanna for her “ice” and then after Aegon’s born say that HE has the song of ice and fire? In your scenario it’s not that he changed his mind about Aegon after he’d already taken Lyanna, but that he wanted her for her metaphorical background. Doesn’t it make more sense for him to have chose her simply because from what he knows of her personality, she’d be best to mother his warrior Visenya analogue?

Oh, I don’t mean to imply that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon being the PtwP to thinking that his child with Lyanna -being the product of his fire and her ice – would be the Prince. My premise is that perhaps Rhaegar thought Rhaenys – through Elia’s Targaryen ancestry (and if we squint, the Martell sigil) – represented the fire part of the song, and that Visenya – through Lyanna’s Stark ancestry – would represent the ice. Together, they’d be Aegon’s support.

I’m not entirely married to the theory of the ice connection being the reason Rhaegar fixated on Lyanna at Harrenhal though, it was merely the possibility that made the most sense to me considering what we know of Rhaegar’s personality and motivations. If you believe in the theory that Rhaegar was trying to recreate the Conquest Trio (which I do), then deciding that Lyanna would be the mother to the third head of the dragon as far back as Harrenhal – before it became apparent that Elia can not have the third head – poses a curious divergence from the original formula of the three conquerors. Because the first Visenya, Aegon and Rhaenys were full-blooded siblings, born to a Targaryen father and a Targaryen-blooded mother, which their analogues could have mimicked if they’d all been born to Rhaegar and the Targaryen-blooded Elia.

So if Rhaegar had already picked Lyanna before it became apparent that his children would not be full siblings due to Elia’s health, that raises the question of why he deviated from matching the Conquest Trio in that aspect. What motivated him to make that leap pretty much on the spot? This was a guy who put much stock in signs and in magic making things happen so I don’t think he’d have made that change unless he believed that something about Lyanna was needed to fulfill the prophecy. I don’t know if her personality being a good fit for his Visenya’s analogue would be a pressing enough reason on its own for him to make that break from the original Trio. Of course that does not necessarily mean that his reason has to be the ice connection; after all, we don’t hear of any qualifications for the two “supporting” heads of the dragon, and we have no idea how Rhaegar interpreted the “song of ice and fire” part, and whether he came to change his interpretation at any point. But since I’m shooting darts in the dark when it comes to Rhaegar’s incentive in pursuing Lyanna at Harrenhal, I might as well throw the entirely prophecy-based possibility out there.

prokopetz:

Degrees of secondhand fandom:

  • I don’t watch/read/listen to it, but I follow the summaries on the wiki
  • I rarely pursue information about it, but I have enough incidental contact with the core fandom that I’ve picked it up via osmosis
  • I strive to avoid it, but I’ve been indoctrinated against my will by the fucking memes
  • I can cite the canon chapter and verse, but I have no recollection of how or why I acquired this knowledge, and that concerns me

GoTASOIAF meme

I was tagged by @pretenderoftheeast, thank you, my good sir!

Rules: answer the questions and then tag seven people. 🙂

The first character I fell in love with: Jon Snow. His first chapter hurt my soul and I promptly adopted him as one of mine.

A character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Cersei Lannister. I hated her for the longest time to the point of being unable to engage with her complexity despite recognizing it. I frequently had to put down A Feast for Crows and walk off the rage I felt reading her chapters. I don’t even know when I went from wanting to break something reading her POV to finding so much enjoyment in her. That’s one engaging slow-mo train-wreck that I’m loving. Honorary mention to Theon Greyjoy.

A character everyone else loves that I don’t: Daenerys Targaryen. I do not seem to be able to separate my feelings towards her story and my feelings towards her. I often find myself disassociating from her narrative despite my best efforts not to. Also Olenna Tyrell. Good god, no.

A character I love that everyone else hates: Tywin Lannister. And I think loving Sansa Stark can be controversial in some circles.

A character I used to love, but don’t any longer: Arya Stark, though that’s an effect of her story rather than her character. I’m just not that interested in the House of Black and White arc. I’ll probably find my way back when she moves on.

A character I would kiss: Quentyn Martell deserves a forehead kiss and a million hugs. Everyone with the last name Stark as well.

A character I’d slap: Ramsay fucking Snow. I insist on calling him Snow to spite him. Yes, I’m trying to spite a fictional character. I hope the Others eat his nose.

A character I’d want to be like: Brienne of Tarth. She is everything.

A character who makes me laugh: Stannis Baratheon. I’m sorry, are you trying to admonish a bird? Also Gerold “I’m of the night” Dayne. I find him amusing.

A character I miss: Ned. Oh gosh, his loss guts me more and more as time passes. I have no explanation for it.

A pairing I love: Canon ones? I’m not really a shipper of canon pairings, all my favorites are fanon. I do have a soft spot for what little we’ve seen of Alys Karstark and Sigorn. Also the doomed pairing of Tyrion and Tysha that hurts my very soul.

A pairing I don’t like: Dany and Drogo. Also Dany and Daario. Dany really needs someone decent stat.

Tagging: @vampireisabitstrong, @theredandwhitequeen, @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly, @riana-one, @joannalannister, @lyannas and @him-e

What goes down if Cersei married Rhaegar? Is the rebellion avoided because Cersei could give Rhaegar his three “dragons”? Do you think she would have turned to Jamie eventually or continued to be obsessed with Rhaegar?

Well, you have to keep in mind the changes that have to occur for Cersei to be able to marry Rhaegar in the first place because that is what’s going to affect the rebellion more than the number of children Rhaegar has.

There is simply no conceivable way for Aerys to agree to a match between his son and Cersei unless he was a completely different character – not only did he explicitly want a bride with Valyrian blood for his son in OTL which is a requirement that Cersei can not meet, but he also would never risk wedding the son he feared would try to usurp him to the daughter of his hated Hand whose power he resented and feared and whom he was convinced was conspiring against him. Wedding Rhaegar to Cersei would give him the support of one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros making overthrowing his father a more attainable prospect which is something Aerys would never allow.
With the growing animosity
between Tywin and Aerys, and Aerys’ suspicions of his son mounting, the
king simply would not abide wedding Rhaegar’s claim to the military
power and wealth of House
Lannister. No,
Rhaegar’s wife had to meet

certain qualifications for Aerys to agree to the match – the most
important of which is that she could not bring Rhaegar any great wealth
or military strength or power that can bolster his position in court and
aid him in overthrowing Aerys.

Meaning that the only way that a marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei could happen is if Aerys was a drastically different character than the one in canon, or if he died before he could make the betrothal between Rhaegar and Elia; either scenario would completely change the course of the narrative and prevent the rebellion for reasons that have nothing to do with the childbearing ability of Rhaegar’s wife.

So I’ll suggest another scenario in order to explore the idea of what would happen if Rhaegar could have the three heads of the dragon by his wife and how that could affect the rebellion. Let’s say that Elia does not suffer the health crisis that made her unable to have more children, does that stop the rebellion? Once I might have said yes: the story as far as we know is that Rhaegar left Dragonstone shortly after Aegon was born and Elia was said to be unable to have more children, fell upon Lyanna near Harrenhal and carried her off to Dorne to impregnate her because “the dragon must have three heads”. On the surface level, that could mean that his need for Lyanna to provide the third child was because Elia could not. But I’ve come to sincerely doubt that narrative.

In light of Rhaegar’s action at Harrenhal, it does not make much sense for him to have had no prior plans or intentions to have Lyanna be the mother of his third child before Aegon’s birth. If we assume that he had no design on Lyanna when he crowned her, the very act of crowning her becomes odd and even more outlandish. This frames Lyanna’s crowning as merely a nod of respect to her actions as the Knight of the Laughing Tree and not meant to have any additional meaning, but was a simple show of appreciation really worth the blunder Rhaegar committed by crowning Lyanna? His gesture as good as announced a romantic entanglement between them, which actually defeats his purpose if he merely intended to honor her bravery. You do not honor someone by publicly besmirching their honor in sight of the biggest gathering in the realm. Rhaegar’s crowning of Lyanna was him expressing interest in her, months before Aegon was born and Elia’s health disallowed another pregnancy.

Additionally, assuming that Rhaegar had not already set his eyes on Lyanna at Harrenhal also makes the sequence of events following the tourney seem disjointed.
It’s not like Rhaegar randomly remembered Lyanna when he was told that Elia can not have more children, for some reason decided that Lyanna and no one else just had to be the mother of his third child regardless of any political ramifications, and somehow knew
exactly where to find her at the time.

There has to be a premeditated element for this story to flow right. Rhaegar had to already have had his mind set on Lyanna by the time of Aegon’s birth, perhaps interpreting her Stark blood as the ice connection in the prophecy.

In that vein, it would not really matter if Elia could have more children or not. Rhaegar was already showing signs that he thought Lyanna necessary to the fulfillment of the prophecy. He might even have taken Elia’s health complications as ~magic guiding the way~ to Lyanna. This scenario would be congruent with how Rhaegar’s interpretation of the prophecy was woefully mistaken and how his belief that magic would fix things affects his story, but more importantly, it does not lay even the slightest hint of blame on Elia.

Because the story of Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna because Elia could not give him a third child could invite blame to be placed on Elia whose inability to have another child “drove” Rhaegar to seek another. Indeed, both Jon Connignton and Cersei enthusiastically blame Elia for Rhaegar’s indiscretions and blunders, Cersei going as far as thinking that he would not have needed Lyanna if Cersei has been the one to marry him instead of Elia. Despite knowing nothing of the prophecy, both express the sentiment that if Elia was more worthy (aka healthier because this is a society that sees a woman’s worth as dependent on her ability to bear and rear children, and equates being healthy and able-bodied with being beautiful), Rhaegar would not have needed Lyanna. They put the blame for Rhaegar’s own actions on Elia repeatedly and unabashedly. I do not believe the narrative is going to validate that misogyny and ableism in any way.

So, that was my long way of saying that no, I don’t think the rebellion would have been prevented simply if Rhaegar could get a third child out of his wife. Rhaegar’s interest in Lyanna preceded the news that Elia could not have more children, and I think he had already decided Lyanna in specific was a necessary component for the fulfillment of the prophecy at Harrenhal and acted based on that.

As for your question about the nature of Cersei’s relationship with Rhaegar,  Cersei would absolutely have gotten disillusioned with Rhaegar if she had married him. Once the initial glamour of
being princessqueen fades and she overcomes the illusion of how she “will mend his hurt when [they] are wed”, once she comes to know the real Rhaegar – the
melancholy prince buried in his prophesies and omens and stories about ice
zombies, invested in what she’d believe were old wives’ tales and illusions about dragons more than he could ever be invested in his marriage – she would come to resent him. She also would not be allowed the kind of power she craved and coveted which would add to her resentment.

As far as her relationship with Jaime go, I believe that there is a limited number  of scenarios that do not end with that relationship happening, and that requires a change from the very onset of their relationship. It would be a mistake to think that Cersei’s relationship with Jaime in canon was a response to Robert; this is a relationship whose roots goes back to before Joanna Lannister died and that grew and solidified before a marriage to Robert was even an idea. Cersei had always thought of Jaime as hers and of their relationship as something that transcended any regular relationship, platonic or romantic. She was possessive of Jaime and of her relationship with him even when she still believed that her betrothal to Rhaegar was going to happen and when she was still firmly obsessed with him. The conviction that she would marry Rhaegar did not prevent her from building that dynamic with Jaime.

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara
Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer
with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She’s dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses… and for her, his twin.

This is how Cersei thinks of the nature of her relationship with Jaime at the age of 10. He was the only one she trusted, he lived for swords and dogs and horses and her. She is still angry at Melara for wanting Jaime almost 25 years after she killed her. I do not think it matters who Cersei married; her possessiveness of and dependence on Jaime would always be there, and her relationship with him would always happen.