That election montage gave me some very unpleasant memories. Did
like how they cut from “but her emails!!!” to Trump proclaiming that he
would not voters if he killed someone.

The intercutting of the
opening scene is good as well: the lesbian couple and Asian couple
fearing for their rights with the lesbian couple having to reassure
their frightened child, juxtaposed against the 4Chan dudebro type
sitting in what truly looked like a basement, though I think they pushed
it with the Evan Peters scene making it look somewhat cartoonish.
Perhaps that was deliberate though to frame the human factor on the
anti-Trump side, the actual people whose lives and rights were
endangered by that win as opposed to the ridiculousness and abstractness
of ~make America great~

Not sure what to make of Billie Lorde
yet, but did like how two people of vastly contrasting ideologies were
encased in the same house. Ain’t that a bitter reality for many.

I LOVE your takedown on Rhaeger and Lyanna’s ‘relationship’. The more I see/read about him, the more he reminds me of Joffrey. He starts out handsome and charming, but then we get to see the entitlement and manipulation (his actions leads to the Death of a Lord Paramount and his eldest son, he humiliates his intended and then sets her aside, doesn’t give one single shit for the consequences of his actions). The only consolation is that they both died choking and clutching their chests.

Hmm, on one hand, I see your point about the points of correlation (though I do not think that Rhaegar set Elia aside to go with the parallel to Joffrey and Sansa. That’s a show-only contrivance), but on the other, this is a very unfair comparison. The Targaryen that is truly paralleled with Joffrey is Aerys, not Rhaegar. Murdering a lord paramount in a sham of a trial, escalating the conflict into an outright war with no hope of conciliation, the crown promising leniency in Ned’s case and safe conduct in Rickard’s case only for JoffreyAerys to breach it, taking pleasure in hurting people, hating and deliberately humiliating their Hand (Tyrion for Joffrey, and Tywin for Aerys), sexually assaulting their Hand’s wife, etc. There is a reason Tyrion called Joffrey Aerys the Third in his pov in the books, and that’s because the similarities are numerous. But when it comes to Rhaegar and Joffrey, that’s a different story.

Comparing Rhaegar to Joffrey is extremely harsh imo, whether on a character level or based on how the characters were presented to us. Rhaegar, for all his stupid blunders and the heavy cost they had, did have a valuable purpose: saving the world. That does not absolve or excuse him by any means, neither does it make his actions defensible or acceptable or right, but I will give him the recognition that his intentions were not malicious. He was not acting out of a sense of entitlement that his crown allowed him to do whatever he wanted with no consequence (despite projecting exactly that to the rebels), but out of a misguided belief that magic would ensure that everything turned out alright and he only had to focus on actually making the third head of the dragon. Terribly short-sighted, unbearably dumb, callous and irresponsible his actions may be, but he did not do it to cause harm or pain, neither did he delight in subjugating people or killing them. He simply thought that the ends justified the means, and as long as he was after the worthy end of saving humanity, it was worth whatever measures he took to ensure it. In that, he is not at all different from Melisandre or Bloodraven, all three aspiring to a higher purpose and showing willingness to do whatever it took to get there on the belief that the goal makes their questionable means worth it, and that the coming fight would exonerate them.

That is in no way comparable to Joffrey who did think that his crown gave him the green light to do what he wanted and who internalized the Lannister ideology of fear and violence, which was not made any better by having an abusive father who gloried in violence. Joffrey had no higher purpose, no real motivation but to assert his power and feel kingly and strong. He was a sadist who found pleasure in subjugating people and causing pain, and who saw people below him as insignificant livestock. Joffrey routinely dehumanized people and found it empowering and satisfying to do so. He showed a degree of cruelty and of delighting in others’ pain that is simply not there in Rhaegar who, despite his many blunders and the toll they had, seems to have been a relatively decent person, albeit a dreamer willing to cross the line ~for the greater good~. But at least Rhaegar, unlike Joffrey, did have a greater good he was pursuing.

Rhaegar and Joffrey were also introduced to us in vastly different ways in the text. Joffrey was the handsome prince Sansa fell for pretty much immediately, the excellent match that was only belied by Lysa’s accusation that the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn, but we got warning signs that this was not the case immediately afterwards, starting from Joffrey’s arrogant superiority with Robb in the training yard to his reaction to Bran’s fall to the incident with Mycah at Darry. From the moment Joffrey interrupted Arya and Mycah, none of us were under any illusion as to what that kid was, and he only got steadily worse from there. So while Joffrey was that handsome charming figure for a hot second, he quickly showed his true colors not even half-way through the first book, and continued to grow nastier as the books progressed. But the main thing about Joffrey’s story wasn’t about how the readership viewed him or even about breaking us from the opinion we formed about him – the truth about Joffrey came far too quickly and was alluded to before that for this to be the case – that was more about breaking Sansa from the illusion she built about Joffrey and what he was, not the readership.

But it is about the readership with Rhaegar. He was not introduced as a remotely nice figure, but as a violent rapist who carried off Lyanna out of personal pleasure and incited a war that cost Ned nearly his entire family.

But as the story progressed,

Robert emerged as an unreliable narrator

and a hypocrite with a tendency to romanticize and alter narratives to fit his
view, and Ned’s lack of animosity towards Rhaegar was noted, which was a pretty clear neon sign for us not to take Robert’s
story at face value, which some took as evidence that the true story is
the total reverse of what Robert said it was, and that perhaps Jorah and Dany’s account of the noble Rhaegar was much closer to the truth, despite both Jorah and Dany being even more of unreliable narrators than Robert.

But of course, Jorah’s and Dany’s truth –
later supported by Barristan Selmy – was that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and
died for her, which falls right in line with courtly love conception of
romanticism that tends to absolve the characters on the grounds of love
being so pure that it makes up for everything else.

Also, note that the one person who disparaged Rhaegar died in book one, and
since then we’ve had nothing but people who romanticize Rhaegar and are
invested in the idea that he did no wrong, or that if he did, it was out
of love and love forgives all. For multiple books, the
narrative only tells us that Rhaegar died for the woman he loved, and that “Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna”,
and other similar sentiments. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal
(something straight out of a chivalric romance), taking her away from an
unwanted marriage, and dying on the Trident with her name supposedly on
his lips paints a rather romantic picture. Even the imagery used by the
narrative is romantic:
“rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and
he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a
woman’s name”. It’s all terribly tragic and terribly romantic. It’s not
hard to see why many people believe in that version of the story, had
come to expect it even, and have come to analyze Rhaegar’s action
through that lens, even though it still does not change the power
imbalance in the story, or the glaring consent issues, or Rhaegar’s
political stupidity. So Rhaegar’s image actually started as very bad and steadily got more and more romanticized as various characters added to the description of the chivalric prince. It’s only when you look closer and beyond the usual romantic tropes that the glaring flaws in that narrative emerge, and you notice that the actuality of Rhaegar’s actions, even if they were solely out of love which I highly doubt, are disturbing.

That does not mean that there is not an in-universe disillusionment coming, but I’m not sure how much it would revolve around Rhaegar. Dany is going to have to face the truth about her family and the rebellion at one point, but how much that pertains to Rhaegar’s image in her eyes, I don’t know. For better or for worse, and no matter what Rhaegar’s motivations were, the fact remains that Dany already knows that he insulted Elia publicly and that he made off with the intended of another lord paramount. Believing it was out of love gives this story a noble veneer in Dany’s eyes, but so would the revelation that Rhaegar was trying to save the world, which makes me wonder whether Dany would fully grasp the ramifications of Rhaegar’s actions, especially with her romanticizing tendencies (though who knows what will happen when Jon discovers his horrific origin story and how that reverberates through whatever relationship he has with Dany at the time) But I fully believe that Dany’s disillusionment would be mainly about the collapse of the image Viserys sold her of Aerys and the nature of the rebellion, to parallel Sansa’s own revelation about Joffrey and who the Lannisters truly are.

Whether Dany’s revelations would solely be about Aerys, though, with the part about Rhaegar being kept for Jon’s own story remains to be seen. Hell, whether GRRM would actually address the consent issues in the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna remains to be seen. I do have my fears tbh because his track record in dealing with consent is not exactly the best, and he has been known to play his tropes straight.

image

racefortheironthrone

replied to your post

“What do you think about the Undercover!Jon theory (in regards to…”

Here here. This theory is simply incompatible with either character as established. Why is it so inconceivable that Jon would fall in love with the woman who rescued him and will help him save the world.

From what I’ve seen (which admittedly was not much), it’s due to the abruptness of the story, and the view of Jon’s speech about good faith as foreshadowing (?!) But everything was abrupt this season and a lot of it didn’t make a lick of sense. It’s not like pushing a romance so hard without proper build up is beyond D&D, especially not when it’s probably coming in the books anyway.

Part of me gets why people believe that theory despite blatant incompatibility with characterization after the writers contrived a plot that flies in the face of characterization and prior plot development with the Winterfell plot this season, but what I honestly do not understand is that people actually want it to be correct. Because apparently it’s better for Jon to be a JoffreyLittlefinger type than to have a romance with Dany or bend the knee to her after she earned his loyalty and trust. Like, I get that people don’t like the ship. I don’t like the ship and I do not think it was properly set up at all. But that goes so far beyond shipping and I’m having trouble understanding it.

image

@nobodysuspectsthebutterfly

replied to your post

“What do you think about the Undercover!Jon theory (in regards to…”

Joffrey, hell, it makes him Littlefinger, who
slept with Lysa just to manipulate her. Marvelous company these
theorists are putting Jon in, truly. Such disgusting
mischaracterization, my god.

Joffrey, Littlefinger, Jorah, gosh what a company. As if that isn’t the biggest character assassination in the history of ever. We just went through Arya and Sansa planning to kill each other, and now people would rather Jon rape Dany than fall for her. Good god.

What do you think about the Undercover!Jon theory (in regards to Daenerys)? I like it because it means D&D didn’t completely assassinate Jon’s character development because… Dany is hot? On the one hand, it’s really shitty, bcause Dany is kind of consenting under false beliefs. On the other hand, she kept Jon a hostage and refused to let him leave unless he bent the knee and has a shown inclination to burn people (and their families) who doesn’t do what she wants.

No matter what I think about how the writers chose to write Dany’s story, no matter my reservations about how Dany has been depicted for the last three seasons or so, one thing will be always immutable: Dany does not deserve to be raped-by-deception, which is what that undercover theory frames the sex between her and Jon.

And anon, why stop at the things Dany did that you do not like? Why not list it all? Like when she got on a dragon and flew all the way to the North to save Jon and the others, like when she pledged to fight for the North before Jon bent the knee. Dany did let Jon leave without bending the knee and did not burn him or Davos when they refused to bend the knee. That does not mean I do not have problems with some of the things Dany have done because the show’s attempt to make her ~problematic~ and insistence on teasing the Mad Queen thing even after they explicitly presented Cersei as the Mad Queen made Dany inconsistent and inexplicably and randomly cruel at times with a tendency to give speeches that make her look very bad, but let’s not erase her heroics and just talk about the things we found off-putting.

But regardless of what she may or may not have done or what we thought of it, the fact remains that nothing would make such a story deserved. Sexual violence is not, and will never be, an appropriate response to anything. That’s just icky and puts the blame of the crime on the person who was violated with the implication that “if they hadn’t done X, they wouldn’t have gotten raped” which only perpetuates rape culture. No. Fuck that idea with a rusty spear. No one deserves to have that done to them, not even the villains in the story (and Dany is decidedly NOT a villain) Gosh, there is no argument on what place Cersei occupies in the narrative, but I’d still fight anyone that says that she deserved what Robert did to her. Hell no.

And to do that in the name of advancing a male character’s story? So that Jon’s character doesn’t get assassinated? Um, how is it not character assassination for Jon to be turned into a rapist? Is it honestly better for Jon to be a manipulative rapist than to have him simply fall in love? More importantly, haven’t we had enough sexual violence visited on a woman to frame the character of a man?

(And on the subject of character assassination, that was not simply a matter of Jon doing something because Dany was hot. While I’m sure that his feelings for her played a role, Jon did
not bend the knee to Dany because he liked her, he did it when he saw
for himself

that she was a queen worth bending the knee to, a queen who would put the safety of the realm above her quest for the throne. Jon did not bend the knee when she bargained with him, making his submission the price of her fighting for the North. But Dany was no longer asking for a price. She paid a price in coming to aid him, risking her life and losing a dragon in the process. She told him she’d fight for the North with no strings attached, with no expectations from him. She put the realm above the crown in the same way Stannis did when he sailed to the Wall to rescue the Night’s Watch from Mance’s army. That was an adaptation of Stannis’ speech from back when he came to the Night’s Watch’s aid, a point about how a monarch earns the crown rather than just stomping their feet demanding fealty.)

Honestly, I hate that undercover theory with a burning passion for what it does to both Dany and Jon. It victimizes Dany for absolutely no reason and makes her reward for refusing to leave Jon and the others to their fate be a cruel violation coming from someone she trusted. It turns Jon into a cruelly calculating individual concocting a plot worthy of the Lannisters from the onset of this plot, meaning that he met good faith with treachery (but apparently that’s totally fine because Dany! kept him!! a hostage!!!). It means that he deceived Dany and went on to sleep with her after she already pledged to fight for the North, and just what does that accomplish? I’ve seen it argued that perhaps Jon started off planning to use Dany but then fell in love with her which is…. Jorah Mormont’s story. Or perhaps he only noticed Dany’s feelings on Dragonstone and decided to use them for his gain…. which sound awfully similar to the JoffreyCersei method with Sansa in the first bookseason. Right. What a company for Jon to keep.

I do not think that the show is ever going there tbh. They are simply too invested in having Jon keep the moral high ground always and forever, and they are using the “uber-romatic” pairing of Lyanna and Rhaegar as a backdrop for Dany and Jon’s own romance. While such a story could be interesting and nuanced in the hands of capable writers, David and Dan are neither capable, nor particularly interested in tackling complicated relationships (see how they stripped the story about Lyanna and Rhaegar down to “they were in wuve. and Robert’s Rebellion was build on a lie. uwu”). I wouldn’t want them near such a story to be honest, if only for the sake of the safety of my laptop since I’m sure to hurl it against a wall if I had to watch what they might think is proper handling of it. They won’t need it anyway, the tension between Jon and Dany is guaranteed once Aegongate is brought to light, and Dany might just suspect Jon of playing her based on the truth of his parentage alone.

Why do you think the Andal tongue was crucial to your proposed agreement between the Faith and the Citadel?

racefortheironthrone:

So here’s my thinking: there’s something really weird about the way that the WOIAF has the Maesters be a pre-Andal instituion but goes back and forth on the First Men having a written language

So here’s my thinking. I think the runic writing of the First Men was quite complicated and difficult to learn, requring one to learn thousands and thousands of easy-to-confuse runes – and that the pre-Andal maesters thus relied as much more on memorizing oral traditions, similar to the traditions of the Celtic druids and bards. 

image

And then come the Andals, but instead of overthrowing the system and burning the Citadel, they get incorporated into the power structure of the Reach and Oldtown more specifically. And so the maesters encounter these new Andal lords and knights, and there’s cultural sharing and intermingling going on.

Now, my headcanon is that the “Common
Tongue” is so named because it’s a relatively easy language to learn (atonal,
regular conjugations, no complicated system of cases and agreements,
straightforward grammar that doesn’t have the verb at the end of the sentence, etc.)
and a writing system that’s alphabetical rather than character-based, so it’s much easier to read and write and to teach people to read and write. 

So early after the Andal incorporation into Oldtown, I think the maesters decided to adopt the Common Tongue and, with the help of the septons of the Faith, write down everything that had previously had been preserved orally, thus why “the tales we have now are the work of septons and maesters writing thousands of years after the fact,” and “the septons who first wrote them down took what details suited them and added others.”

Thus, we have a reason for the Maesters to compromise with the Faith

Are there any theories about the house with the red door? Dany mentions it so often I keep feeling like there’s some kind of mystery there?

There are but not any I believe in, sorry! I think the house with the
red door is simply there to frame Dany’s yearning for home and for the
relative peace in her childhood that she lost after Ser Willem Darry
died, and she and Viserys took to wandering the free cities and barely
scraping by. The house with the door symbolized stability and safety, a
place for Dany to call home, and the yearning for lost childhood that
was attached the one place where she got to be a child. The continued
yearning for that house also helps to frame the difference between her
and Viserys from the very start.

“We will have it all back someday, sweet sister,“ [Viserys] would promise [Dany].
Sometimes his hands shook when he talked about it. ”The jewels and the
silks, Dragonstone and King’s Landing, the Iron Throne and the Seven
Kingdoms, all they have taken from us, we will have it back.“ Viserys
lived for that day. All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house
with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she
had never known.  

Home to Viserys meant power, meant the Iron
Throne and the Seven Kingdoms and luxury living and punishing those who
rose against the Targaryens. But Dany simply wanted the safety and
peacefulness of the house they resided in as children. She did not have
designs on power for the sake of power, or even the Seven Kingdoms as a
birthright, but as a place to belong that she can call hers. That’s why
the house with the red door keeps popping up in the text. The search for
a home is
very prevalent in Dany’s story and she is so very attached to what that
house represents that she even has a dream about living a simple life
with Daario in a house with a red door. But that’s not who Dany is or
what she is meant to do. Her destiny transcends that and will prove far
greater.

The return to the house with the red door is a tempting illusion, as
tempting as the image of Willem Darry beckoning her into it from the
House of the Undying, but an illusion all the same. But Dany can not go
back any more that she can get Willem Darry back, or return to being
that little girl living in a house with a red door and a lemon tree
outside the window.