respects Dany, because (like Sansa) she HAS been dealt a shit hand by fate and still come out on top, and yet he’s wary of her (because he knows what she does with people that defy her and they’re heading North, where she probably won’t get a very warm welcome). Him going to her cabin, I saw as him being scared out of his mind for what’s coming and wanting to be with someone who can (somwhat) relate,

since Daenerys has seen the WW/wights as well, and then one of them
makes a move (probably Dany, since Jon isn’t too forward with women; I
don’t think he’s made the first move once, at least show-vise?) and when
he finally sort of catches himself, he realises that this means more to
Dany than to him (since I do think she’s in love with him), which, you
know, is still really shitty, but at least it’s not premeditated
taking-advantage-of-her-feelings.

Here’s the thing: Jon does not actually know the dark sides of Dany’s power, he has not witnessed it firsthand to truly understand that part. He is aware that she used her dragons in combat but he was not there to be fazed by the destruction, neither did he witness or, as far as we know, even learn of how she dealt with Randyll and Dickon Tarly. The show conveniently spared Jon that dilemma by having him separated from seeing the damage the dragons can inflict, meaning that it remains abstract in his mind, and was merely a passing point of unease that was quickly brushed aside by that conversation with Dany about how “power can be terrible”. So Jon does not associate the dragons with death and destruction, but with saving his ass and giving him and the entire realm a much needed advantage against the Others, with the potential to save millions of life.

Moreover, as Dany stated, she is not going to the North as a conqueror but as a savior, someone who is lending her significant strength to the real fight and who has grown to respect and appreciate the counsel of the North’s chosen leader. I did not see the slightest hint that Jon is wary of what Dany might do if she is not received warmly by the North. He knows she won’t because he gave a whole speech about how the North sees southrons at the beginning of the season, and he was there to listen to the Northern lords express doubts about Dany before he left for Dragonstone. He also knows that the North remembers how they fought to bring down the Targaryens. Jorah reminds them of that fact in the finale, and Jon encounters it with his own plan to have Dany sail to White Harbor with him which is
specifically tailored to send a message that Dany is not coming to use
her superior power to subjugate the North, and to familiarize her as a
leader to the Northern lords.

Also, if Jon was wary of Dany and how she might react to Northern skepticism or even downright hostility, he would not have bent the knee to her in the first place. Because not only is bending the knee bound to make the Northmen even more unhappy, but it does not make sense for Jon to hand Dany authority over his people if he thinks she would harm them on a whim.

Finally, it was Jon who made that final move that progressed the mutual silent pining between them into a full-fledged romantic entanglement. Actually, Jon made some pretty obvious overtures through romantically-charged gestures this season. Bending the knee to Dany as they shared a Moment is one, publicly announcing that he pledged himself to Queen Daenerys in the dragon pit is another, and the crowning move was him going to her chambers with the clear intent to turn their relationship physical. I do not think the show framed the relationship as Dany being more invested or Jon simply seeking assurance, and the way they showed this to the backdrop of Rhaegar and Lyanna’s own story, that the show took the simplified romance route with, does not leave room for your theory imo.

Sometimes an elephant is just an elephant, anon. The story is that Jon and Dany fell for each other, no need to strain ourselves to find non-existent clues that suggest something else.
Jon’s physical attraction to Dany was established through Davos, they shared several ~moments~ and meaningful stares, Jon pledged himself to her on two separate occasions, both heavy with romantic subtext, they had the ~intimately stare in each other’s eyes and tenderly frame the other’s face while they are thrusting~ sex montage. It’s done.

It might not have been well-written, it might not have been properly
handled, but honestly, what was well-written or properly handled this
season?

The show does not exactly do subtlety or nuanced relationships, and they simply have no time to handle such complications in the relationship when they have the big R+L=J reveal and the conflict it would definitely bring on both a personal and political front, not to mention the army of the dead making it through the Wall and into the North. By the time Jon and Dany make it to the North, it’ll be in a full out crisis mode, and the writers will have way bigger fish to fry to do a story about Jon and Dany not being on the same page with their relationship.

Pure speculation, but say that all the events of the show/books DIDN’T happen and Ned and Jon got to meet each other again (but Jon still went to the Night’s Watch); do you think Ned WOULD HAVE actually told Jon about Lyanna (or even SOMETHING about his mother)?

I think he would have at one point, yes. Take a look at how he thinks of Jon while in the black cells.

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him …

That shows Ned’s willingness to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, or at very least explain some things to him. While it can be argued that this is born of Ned’s regret over how he generally handled things which was at an all-time high with him locked in the black cells and his daughters at the mercy of Cersei Lannister, or that Robert’s death and Ned’s surety of his own imminent death caused him to reconsider how he dealt with hiding Jon’s parentage, I believe that this quote indicates that Ned did not intend to take the truth about Jon’s parentage to his grave and that he did plan on telling Jon at some point. That he felt “sorrow too deep for words” that he could not see Jon and talk with him, that he could not explain and finally ease Jon’s mind and answer his questions about his mother, tells me that Ned did not mean to leave Jon to wonder about his mother forever while Ned kept his silence.

I’m not saying that Sansa should have got a huge sword and then mightily sung it at Littlefinger’s head But, she could’ve easily got a knife and cut his throat. Lord knows Arya isn’t some big woman who could do it either, yet she was still reduced to an executer, and it rubs me the wrong way that people are quick to jump into Sansa’s defense. Arya is also a young girl, and a nobleborn lady, same as Sansa, why is she so different? Why where she and Bran only used at the end for that awful scene?

My dude, my man, did you miss the part where Arya was trained by Faceless Men? The show pretty much turned Arya into a ninja, what with the ridiculous chase of last season, which was only cemented with Arya’s spar with Brienne this season that not only showed skill but also precision and great physical strength because withholding hits from Brienne of Tarth is no easy feat. That’s how Arya is different from Sansa.

But that isn’t the root of the problem, is it? The problem here is that this has turned into a Sansa vs Arya discussion when it did not have to be. Mind you, the show did not make it any better, but let’s not pretend that this is a brand new sentiment in fandom. Dragging one girl into the mud when discussing the other is a favorite pastime in fandom. There are ways to criticize Arya’s plot and role in that scene without turning this into a drivel against Sansa. If, say, the point was that the show has turned Arya’s story into this very violent arc where they had her revel in revenge and blood so for her to say that she is the executioner magnify what was already a huge problem in characterization and a fundamental misunderstanding of Arya’s character. If the point was that Arya’s presentation as the executioner felt reductive to a rich character that got the short end of the stick in the show’s narrative. But that was not the point being argued, was it? No, it was “Sansa reduced Arya to an executioner!! Sansa ignored Stark morals!!! OVERTHROW HER…. but reeducate Arya and Bran because they have been used by evil sister Sansa”

It rubs you the wrong way that we’re quick to jump to Sansa’s defense? We’re literally being told that Sansa “is disregarding Northern values” and that Ned would be disappointed, and that Sansa should be overthrown. Why? Because she did not kill Littlefinger herself. If you can’t figure out why we are defending Sansa against that crap, I honestly do not know what to say to you. All that drivel about how Sansa reduced her brother and sister to Google and an executioner reeks of Sansa hate, because Sansa did not reduce anyone to anything, she gave Arya the credit for bringing LF down ffs. That whole thing was planned, and Bran and Arya chose to assume these roles because all three worked as a unit in that scene, representing House Stark. Did I miss a scene where Sansa compelled Arya and Bran to behave a certain way or say a certain thing, where she ordered them to? No? Then stop taking your frustration at how the show butchered Arya’s characterization on Sansa. Sansa did not use Arya and Bran. Arya and Bran made a choice and orchestrated the whole trial with Sansa. And let me take a moment to remind everyone that Bran gave that blade to Arya for a reason. Or was Sansa to blame for that one as well?

And you know, I find it reaaaally interesting that no one was throwing rage parties and spouting things about betraying Northern values and Ned being disappointed when ROBB STARK had the Karstark men hanged. But yes, by all means, defend the thought-process that slitting someone’s throat is the definitive mark of good leadership. And insist on bringing the discussion to a Sansa vs Arya dichotomy when THE OP DID NOT EVEN MENTION ARYA.

Please let that undercover!Jon theory die on a privy. *shudders*

@bright-eyed-goddes

replied to your post

“One fact about me: I will fight you if you try to erase Ned’s…”

Finally!!! I feel so validated by your awesomely explained analyses. But would you care to explain what Ned’s mistakes re: Jon were? I’m really interesting in your take on those. Thanks!

I’ve talked about this here and here. To add, I think Ned erred in not telling Jon anything about his mother to the point where Jon does not even know if she is alive or dead. It’s understandable why the subject was hard for Ned to talk about, and there were a lot of things that he couldn’t tell Jon, but it would have made a huge difference if he’d told Jon something as simple as “your mother loved you very much, and her dying wish was for me to take care of you” which would have eased Jon’s complicated feelings about his mother, and his perception of Ned’s actions in light of his adamant refusal to talk about her, namely that Ned was ashamed of him and his mother and that’s why he refused to talk about her. It would have also eased any feelings Jon might have had that his mother gave him up easily or something to that effect, a feeling that shines through in his interactions with Gilly and his observation of her own reactions.

scullylikesscience:

gaypolitik:

aryainwinterfell:

alayne-stonecoldfox:

misslocus:

buttercuparry:

olenoely:

ashavgreyjoy:

People just love to hate Sansa don’t they? I saw someone on twitter say that Ned would be disappointed because Sansa passed the sentence but didn’t kill LF. Come on, I don’t think anything made Ned prouder than his three babies teaming up to execute that slimy piece of scum

Sansa stans just like to project themselves as victims don’t they? It’s not only about Sansa not killing Baelish, is that Arya said I’m the executioner. An executioner, a headsman in House Stark and that’s just not okay. Because that is what Ned was against. Bran and Ned had a conversation about headsman and it went like this:

and there are actually people saying Sansa swing the sword and that sword is Arya is even worse because once again it deprives Arya of her humanity, reduce her into an object and become Sansa’s servant, in this case a headsman, an executioner.

The North does not have a headsman. And even if it’s a joint decision, the person who is ultimately sentencing another human being to die should be the one to swing the sword….the actual sword, like the sword that kills you( no, a sword is not a person who is ordered around). Think of it in this way- You are sentencing a person’ life to be taken away as a punishment for everything he/she has done. But tell me do you truly have the right to take away that life? Because you sure don’t have the ability to give someone life ( i’m not saying this in a biological sense), none of us do….so the north believes that it is YOUR duty to bear the burden of the sentence that YOU passed. YOU will have to look in the eyes of the person YOU are sentencing to die & then YOU have to swing that sword. YOU will have to be the one who is *solely* responsible for a death. If YOU can’t do that maybe the person did not deserve to die.

Can Sansa swing a sword properly? Or slit someone’s throat as quickly, and efficiently as Arya had?

No.

And you can really mess up slitting a person’s throat; causing them more pain for a longer period of time. Whereas, properly done, the victim loses consciousness very quickly.

Also: beheading someone with a sword takes a great deal of upper body strength.

So Arya’s act as executioner was the best solution, and if Ned would have been disappointed, then that would have been his own dumb ass problem.

“Sansa is so pure and moral and a true stark”

Sansa: ignores a major stark moral

“But swords are heavy you guys!!”

Gotta love how eager a certain set of stans are to defend Dan and David’s Winterhell masterpiece. Could it possibly be because it aligns so closely with their own hopes and fics? Their fav is ruling over all while her brother and sister are reduced to nothing but tools for her to access at will. Yep, sounds like most fics plaguing AO3.

But anyway, yes, Ned would be disappointed that Northern values are being disregarded in favor of a southron practice. The Northern lords and ladies present would be livid and would see Sansa as unfit to lead them, even temporarily. Reducing Arya to just an executioner while Bran is nothing but Google would have been her last act as Lady of Winterfell. They would have removed her from power and ruled as a council until Jon returned, all the while re-educating Bran and Arya on their own culture since the show versions seem to have forgotten.

Man. Y’all be crazy about this shit. 2 points- first off, if Ned would be “disappointed,” he would only have himself to blame, why? Because he was the one neglecting to teach this apparently huge moral lesson to his daughters- only made sure his sons knew.

2nd- It doesn’t matter if it was Sansa swinging or Arya, or hell, even if Bran rolled his happy as over and did it. Their house passed judgement. Their house executed him. There is no ambiguity there. Arya wasn’t being paid or forced to kill someone, she helped pass judgement and killed a bitch.

I’ve already written way more than I want to about a fucking TV show- if only you paid this much attention to politics in America.

Yes to @gaypolitik above.

Sansa did look LF in the eyes and listen to his final words. Also, Sansa wasn’t the only one passing judgment. When she laid out the charges against LF, she used the words “our mother” and “our father.” It was a combined judgment fully supported by Bran and Arya. She wasn’t just speaking for herself, she was speaking on behalf of her entire family. I’m sure if Sansa had been taught some kind of violent skill, she would have “swung the sword” as well.

The idea that the northern lords would be so outraged at Sansa not committing the death stroke they would revolt against her, strip her of her authority, and set up Bran and Arya in her place or a council is so laughable and preposterous I honestly don’t know what to say to that.

Why people don’t want Sansa, Arya, and Bran to work together as a team is beyond me. Yes, Ned Stark said that the person who passes the sentence should swing the sword, but not everyone is capable of swinging swords and he certainly never expected or wanted Sansa to be. What he did expect and want for Sansa and Arya was for them to work together.

“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. […] Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you …” ~ A Game of Thrones, Arya II

Arya wasn’t reduced to nothing but an executioner. She’s more than that. But there’s no denying she has strengths that Sansa doesn’t have, that Bran doesn’t have. She is sharing those strengths with her family, with her pack, just like her father told her to. Sansa, Arya, and Bran are all working together to protect one another, and Ned would be proud.

Apparently I’m about to take part in the discourse (oh god, I hate that discourse) but anyway.

I’m not going to address the mess that was the Winterfell plot or even comment on the many outrageous things there, but I just want to point one thing out: there has been discussion in fandom for a good while now on how limiting the view of “the man who passes the sentence swings the sword” is. It is presented and viewed as something more honorable, more northern, to swing the sword yourself. But while there is meaningful lesson in that line of thinking (taking personal responsibility for your condemnation of a person to death, understanding the value of human life and how the decision to take one should never be easy), it is something that is tailored to able-bodied men. A disabled person like Bran or Tyrion can’t swing the sword even if they so wished, a woman who received no physical training like Sansa can’t swing the sword, very few women can in Westeros, does that make automatically them dishonorable? Would it be more honorable for them to try and end up botching the execution? Would you have seen Sansa as more fit to rule had she tried to execute LF herself and only succeeded in killing him slowly? I mean, Farlen’s execution in the books (Ser Rodrick’s in the show) stands as clear evidence of what happens when someone who have no idea what they are doing attempts to swing the sword. And hell, Theon was physically able and fit with significantly more upper body strength than Sansa, and he still botched it.

It’s an ableist and sexist view to exclusively see ability to swing the sword as a mark of honor (and honestly, fandom is far too rigid in interpreting that phrase. Good lord.) And to use a physical incapability that Bran and Sansa have no control over and that prevent them from following Ned’s sentiment as “proof” that they betrayed Northern values and that Ned would be ashamed is just ugly. WTF, man. I mean, okay, take Sansa out of the equation. If Bran was ruling in Winterfell and he sentenced anyone to die, how exactly do you think that sentence would have been carried out? Through a proxy. That’s the only way.

But I guess Bran also should never be in charge of Winterfell according to several people above. How dare he be disabled and unable to follow Northern traditions? Ned would totally disown him if he was alive. Totes.

Give me a break.

crowtrobot2001:

Lannister family portrait circa 275 AC by raymondwaskita

Hello. This is a bit off topic but I was wondering, how do you think Jon would feel knowing that Rhaegar knew about the Long Night and the War for the Dawn and that he didn’t do anything to prepare the world for it? Especially considering that Jon has struggled for years to get people to listen and understand how serious the threat of the Night King is. (based on this post from you – /post/164104249975/ive-been-thinking-about-this-ask-i-reblogged-from)

I’m not sure that Jon would have the capacity to dwell on that part in the midst of a raging identity crisis brought on by the parentage reveal. Between his resurrection and whatever change that brings to his personality, and the knowledge about his parentage, Jon should have enough to deal with and think on beyond Rhaegar’s failure there. I mean, how much would that fact stand out when Jon has to deal with the fact that his birth father made off with his mother, breaking every chivalric code and starting a chain of events that led to the murder of his Stark grandfather and uncle, that his father’s folly caused a war in which Jon’s half-siblings were murdered and his adoptive father had to hide him from his own best friend to save his life, that one of his grandfathers killed the other, that his mother was left to give birth alone in an isolated tower while three Kingsguard battled his adoptive father to keep him from reaching her, that Jon himself was born for the explicit purpose of fulfilling a prophecy.There is a lot for Jon to process and work through that I don’t think the consequences Rhaegar’s actions had on the realm’s ability to prepare for the army of the dead would really rank high on his list of priorities as much as the fact that Rhaegar caused a war that cost thousands of life in trying to conceive Jon. Jon would be too consumed in dealing with the overhaul of his entire identity and self-conception, and probably walking away from the fight altogether for a time, or at very least seriously considering it, in response to the discovery of his prophecy-mandated birth.

salazarastark

replied to your post

“One fact about me: I will fight you if you try to erase Ned’s…”

I like exploring a Rhaegar and Jon relationship in both AU and canon, but as someone who was adopted by their stepfather, the fact that people like to invalidate the love between Ned and Jon makes me rage. Ned raised Jon and he loved him and cared for him and he was his father and Jon himself would hate any claim otherwise.

He totally would.

He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.

It blows my mind that anyone could ignore the sheer presence Ned has in Jon’s thoughts and how deeply he feels for his father. One of the main reasons why the truth of his parentage will be devastating to Jon is that he is proud to be Ned’s son, bastard or not. He strove his whole life to follow Ned’s example. He pushes against the idea of anyone taking Ned’s place as his father. That’s not going to go away simply because he finds out Rhaegar fathered him. What is Rhaegar to Jon but a name, and one attached to a disturbing history at that?

And that weird drive has to erase Ned’s influence has other sides: it implies, even if unintentionally, that blood relationships inherently have precedence over adoptive relationships for no other reason but blood connection. It’s as if Rhaegar somehow has one up on Ned simply because Jon is his birth son. Other than the fact that Ned is also Jon’s blood, the make of a father isn’t the creation of a child, but the raising of one. The person who raised Jon –and raised him bloody well, I might add– is Eddard Stark. He essentially committed treason and caused strife in his marriage to have Jon raised in Winterfell among his family. He gave Jon an education on bar with his own heir. He gave Jon a home and a family. It was by no means perfect. Ned made mistakes with Jon and failed him in some crucial moments, but that’s not what defines their relationship or Ned’s place in Jon’s heart. It’s fair to criticize Ned where he erred, but to try to erase the entire relationship is unbearably unfair, and it’s made even worse if the attempt is to substitute Ned’s influence and teaching and love with some made-up shiny relationship with Rhaegar.

Rhaegar fathered Jon for a prophecy and started a war to do it. Ned raised Jon for the love he had for his sister and his nephew, without having a hint of how important Jon will turn out to be. The former sought a weapon, the latter saved and nurtured an innocent life. Which has earned the title of father?