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thenightkingcometh

replied to your post

“Hi! I’m new & looking for an A/reasoned opinion to a ASOIAF Q (& ur…”

there’s also bran, the male heir above rickon and sansa, who will return from the cave at some point.

I mean, Arya too will return at some point. But so far I expect this plot to involve only Jon, Sansa and Rickon because there is already established plans in each of their plots to set for this storyline. Bran’s story is extremely involved with the magical side rn that I don’t expect him to be included in this one, as opposed to someone like Jon whose arc is both magical and political, or Sansa who arc is purely political, or Rickon whose only function in the story lies in being a Stark heir. Also, both Bran and Rickon serve the same purpose of being Ned’s male legitimate child so no sense in having both for the same plot. You have Rickon with the senior claim and White Harbor’s backing, Jon with Robb’s will and Stannis, Sansa with the knights of the Vale. Three claimants, each with their powerful faction pushing their claim.

I tend to think that Bran will return after the conclusion of this plot, either right ahead of the Wall falling or concurrently with the Others’ invasion starting. At which point the politicking over who holds Winterfell would either be resolved or so far down everyone’s priorities with preparation for the war picking up.

Would Lyanna/Edmure have been in the cards if Robert died during the betrothal and Stannis didn’t take up the position? There is a large but not impossible age difference & the Riverlands are close to the North. It would also push the actually wedding back a few years.

Nope. Brandon and Catelyn’s betrothal cements the Winterfell-Riverrun alliance and it’s not good politics to waste Lyanna or Edmure’s hands on an already established alliance when they can be used to ally with other houses. Why marry Lyanna to Edmure if you can marry her to, say, Elbert Arryn? Both Rickard Stark and Hoster Tully are too savvy and ambitious to squander a valuable marriage pawn each on an already guaranteed alliance.

Hi! I’m new & looking for an A/reasoned opinion to a ASOIAF Q (& ur asks are v good) Rickon: what is his book ending? Officially, he’s in Skagos (in the show he’s dead but I feel killing him was such a waste) When searching, the answers usually are “google what a shaggy dog story is”, or “he’s dies like the show”. Would GRRM reverse a shaggy dog story, or keep him alive at least so he can do SOMETHING? Will he be part of a Great Northern Conspiracy?Reunited w his family? Or Killed off? Thanks x

Welcome to the fandom dear and thanks! I’m not sure how helpful my answer is gonna be but I’ll do my best.

Rickon’s endgame is uncertain and isn’t something that’s discussed in fandom all that much. The fact that we have very little information on him makes the trajectory of his story less clear than his siblings so most of what I’ve seen is offhand mentions of preferred endgames for him. The shaggy dog thing is a definite possibility (and perhaps the most solid for how it has roots in popular tropes and in Shaggydog’s name) but there is nothing to tell us if GRRM is gonna play this trope straight or if it’s gonna be subverted. He’s been known to do both so it’s hard say with any degree of certainty. Personally, I hope Rickon survives but I’m not sure if he will.

However, I’ll put it out there that I don’t think that the shaggy dog reference necessarily means Rickon needs to die. As I understand it, a shaggy dog story is one that has a lot of built up but whose ending is anticlimactic and makes the story inconsequential. I… wouldn’t describe Rickon’s death as an anticlimactic ending. That’s not to say that he wouldn’t die but his death doesn’t serve the shaggy dog aspect too well imo. But I started thinking of how the way Rickon’s arc was constructed
makes his function in the story less about him and more about his role as a Stark claimant. As Ned’s son and Robb’s heir. So perhaps the anticlimactic ending doesn’t lie in Rickon’s death but in his role as an immediately available Stark heir for the Northmen to band around against the Boltons losing its urgency as both Jon and Sansa come down as valid claimants to Winterfell in their own right. Or in how Davos’ purpose of winning White Harbor’s allegiance to Stannis by retrieving Rickon would be more or less rendered moot when Stannis liberates Winterfell and earns the allegiance of the Northmen. Specifically, I keep returning to this:

“Roose Bolton has Lord Eddard’s daughter. To thwart him White Harbor
must have Ned’s son … and the direwolf. The wolf will prove the boy is
who we say he is, should the Dreadfort attempt to deny him.”

At that point of the story, Rickon is immeasurably valuable to the Northmen as the one Stark whose general location they could pinpoint and who has an indisputable proof of his Starkness in his direwolf. The Boltons are claiming to have Arya so Wyman Manderly needs a Stark whose claim trumps Arya and thus set Rickon’s return as a condition for his acclamation of Stannis. But not only does any Stark claim trump what the Boltons have because their Arya is actually Jeyne Poole and has no claim to Winterfell, but Rickon is about to lose his position as the only available Stark heir. Needing a male Stark to counter the Bolton’s claim via “Arya” is gonna be a moot point when Stannis and the Northmen overthrow the Boltons anyway, and both Robb’s will and Stannis’ presence make the Stark line of succession a very complicated matter. Every aspect driving Davos’ journey to Skagos is gonna be turned on its head, some of it long before Davos even makes it back with or without Rickon. So Rickon’s retrieval would not be the lifeline for the anti-Bolton Stark loyalists as it once was, he’d no longer be that attainable hope and relatively easy solution for the matter.

That’s where I’m at with this plot. I personally think it’s far more necessary to the plot for Rickon to return with Davos to add to the knot of the succession of Winterfell than for him to die. I’d certainly like for him to survive the War for the Dawn as well and be a part of the Stark restorative efforts post-war alongside his siblings but who knows what GRRM has planned. We’ll have to wait for TWOW to find out.

Well, today was a day that could have completely destroyed my relationship with my brother. I’m still not convinced it’s not irrevocably damaged even if we’re talking to each other now. But I guess that’s a normal reaction to an argument that ended with one of you collapsing with uncontrollable muscle spasms from agitation, so now we’re pretending it didn’t happen like responsible adults. Now time to go busy my brain with something else since everything hurts down to my very soul. Fandom better have something exciting and/or distracting going on. Come on, universe. Be a doll.

Historically Authentic Sexism in Fantasy. Let’s Unpack That.

celynbrum:

gwydionmisha:

writeroost:

gwydionmisha:

As someone who originally trained as a social historian of the Medieval Period, I have some things to add in support of the main point.  Most people dramatically underestimate the economic importance of Medieval women and their level of agency.  Part of the problem here is when modern people think of medieval people they are imagining the upper end of the nobility and not the rest of society. 

Your average low end farming family could not survive without women’s labour.  Yes, there was gender separation of labour.  Yes, the men did the bulk of the grain farming, outside of peak times like planting and harvest, but unless you were very well off, you generally didn’t live on that.  The women had primary responsibility for the chickens, ducks, or geese the family owned, and thus the eggs, feathers, and meat.  (Egg money is nothing to sneeze at and was often the main source of protein unless you were very well off).  They grew vegetables, and if she was lucky she might sell the excess.  Her hands were always busy, and not just with the tasks you expect like cooking, mending, child care, etc.. As she walked, as she rested, as she went about her day, if her hands would have otherwise been free, she was spinning thread with a hand distaff.  (You can see them tucked in the belts of peasant women in art of the era).  Unless her husband was a weaver, most of that thread was for sale to the folks making clothe as men didn’t spin.  Depending where she lived and the ages of her children, she might have primary responsibility for the families sheep and thus takes part in sheering and carding.  (Sheep were important and there are plenty of court cases of women stealing loose wool or even shearing other people’s sheep.)  She might gather firewood, nuts, fruit, or rushes, again depending on geography.  She might own and harvest fruit trees and thus make things out of that fruit.   She might keep bees and sell honey.  She might make and sell cheese if they had cows, sheep, or goats.  Just as her husband might have part time work as a carpenter or other skilled craft when the fields didn’t need him, she might do piece work for a craftsman or be a brewer of ale, cider, or perry (depending on geography).  Ale doesn’t keep so women in a village took it in turn to brew batches, the water not being potable on it’s own, so everyone needed some form of alcohol they could water down to drink.  The women’s labour and the money she bought in kept the family alive between the pay outs for the men as well as being utterly essential on a day to day survival level.

Something similar goes on in towns and cities.  The husband might be a craftsman or merchant, but trust me, so is his wife and she has the right to carry on the trade after his death.

Also, unless there was a lot of money, goods, lands, and/or titles involved, people generally got a say in who they married.  No really.  Keep in mind that the average age of first marriage for a yeoman was late teens or early twenties (depending when and where), but the average age of first marriage for the working poor was more like 27-29.  The average age of death for men in both those categories was 35.  with women, if you survived your first few child births you might live to see grandchildren.

Do the math there.  Odds are if your father was a small farmer, he’s been dead for some time before you gather enough goods to be marrying a man.  For sure your mother (and grandmother and/or step father if you have them) likely has opinions, but you can have a valid marriage by having sex after saying yes to a proposal or exchanging vows in the present (I thee wed), unless you live in Italy, where you likely need a notary.  You do not need clergy as church weddings don’t exist until the Reformation.  For sure, it’s better if you publish banns three Sundays running in case someone remembers you are too closely related, but it’s not a legal requirement.  Who exactly can stop you if you are both determined?

So the less money, goods, lands, and power your family has, the more likely you are to be choosing your partner.  There is an exception in that unfree folk can be required to remarry, but they are give time and plenty of warning before a partner would be picked for them.  It happened a lot less than you’d think.  If you were born free and had enough money to hire help as needed whether for farm or shop or other business, there was no requirement of remarriage at all.  You could pick a partner or choose to stay single.  Do the math again on death rates.  It’s pretty common to marry more than once.  Maybe the first wife died in childbirth.  The widower needs the work and income a wife brings in and that’s double if the baby survives.  Maybe the second wife has wide hips, but he dies from a work related injury when she’s still young.  She could sure use a man’s labour around the farm or shop.  Let’s say he dies in a fight or drowns in a ditch.  She’s been doing well.  Her children are old enough to help with the farm or shop, she picks a pretty youth for his looks instead of his economic value.  You get marriages for love and lust as well as economics just like you get now and May/December cuts both ways.

A lot of our ideas about how people lived in the past tends to get viewed through a Victorian or early Hollywood lens, but that tends to be particularly extreme as far was writing out women’s agency and contribution as well as white washing populations in our histories, films, and therefore our minds eyes.

Real life is more complicated than that.

BTW, there are plenty of women at the top end of the scale who showed plenty of agency and who wielded political and economic power.  I’ve seen people argue that the were exceptions, but I think they were part of a whole society that had a tradition of strong women living on just as they always had sermons and homilies admonishing them to be otherwise to the contrary.  There’s also a whole other thing going on with the Pope trying to centralized power from the thirteenth century on being vigorously resisted by powerful abbesses and other holy women.  Yes, they eventually mostly lost, but it took so many centuries because there were such strong traditions of those women having political power.

Boss post! To add to that, many historians have theorised that modern gender roles evolved alongside industrialisation, when there was suddenly a conceptual division between work/public spaces, and home/private spaces. The factory became the place of work, where previously work happened at home. Gender became entangled in this division, with women becoming associated with the home, and men with public spaces. It might be assumable, therefore, that women had (have?) greater freedoms in agrarian societies; or, at least, had (have?) different demands placed on them with regard to their gender.

(Please note that the above historical reading is profoundly Eurocentric, and not universally applicable. At the same time, when I say that the factory became the place of work, I mean it in conceptual sense, not a literal sense. Not everyone worked in the factory, but there is a lot of literature about how the institution of the factory, as a symbol of industrialisation, reshaped the way people thought about labour.)

I am broadly of that opinion.  You can see upper class women being encouraged to be less useful as the piecework system grows and spreads.  You can see that spread to the middle class around when the early factory system gears up.  By mid-19th century that domestic sphere vs, public sphere is full swing for everyone who can afford it and those who can’t are explicitly looked down on and treated as lesser.  You can see the class system slowly calcify from the 17th century on.

Grain of salt that I get less accurate between 1605-French Revolution or thereabouts.  I’ve periodically studied early modern stuff, but it’s more piecemeal.

I too was confining my remarks to Medieval Europe because 1. That was my specialty.  2. A lot of English language fantasy literature is based on Medieval Europe, often badly and more based on misapprehension than what real lives were like.

I am very grateful that progress is occurring and more traditions are influencing people’s writing.  I hate that so much of the fantasy writing of my childhood was so narrow.

Wanna reblog this because for a long time I’ve had this vague knowledge in my head that society in the past wasn’t how people are always assuming it was (SERIOUSLY VICTORIANS, THANKS FOR DICKING WITH HOW WE VIEW EVERYTHING HISTORICAL). I get fed up with people who complain about fantasy stuff, claiming “historical accuracy” to whine about ethnic diversity and gender equality and other cool stuff that lets everyone join in the fun, and then I get sad because the first defence is always “it’s fantasy, so that doesn’t matter.”

I mean, that’s a good and valid defence, but here you have it; proof fucking positive that historical accuracy shows that equality and diversity are not new ideas and if anything BELONG in historical fiction. As far as I can tell, most people in the past were too bloody busy to get all ruffled up about that stuff; they had prejudices, but from what little I know the lines historically drawn in the sand were in slightly different places and for different reasons. (You can’t trust them furrigners. It’s all pixies and devil-worship over there).

So next time someone tells you that something isn’t “historically accurate” because it’s not racist/sexist/any other form of bigotry for that matter-ist enough for their liking, tell them to shut the hell up because they clearly know far less about history than they do about being an asshole.

Historically Authentic Sexism in Fantasy. Let’s Unpack That.

nabyss:

tariqah:

Remember when George Bush started one of the most unnecessary conflicts on earth and ruined the lives of millions in Iraq, remember when just last year people sanitized his image to that of an old man who just paints and even liberals were talking about how he’s actually good now. Give it 15 years, it’ll happen for Trump too

A war which directly gave birth to ISIS.

What happens to baby Jon if Lyanna doesn’t make Ned promise to protect him? On the one hand, it seems strange to me that without the promise Ned lets Robert Baratheon kill his nephew or what not, but on the other hand the fact that he promised to protect him seems to haunt him later in life, suggesting that he wished he didn’t have to keep it, and that on his own he’d have bad other choices. But I can’t figure out what those choices might have been, short of, again, basically baby Jon dying.

See, I don’t agree with your reading of the function of Ned’s promise to Lyanna at all. I don’t think it’s there as a restraint on Ned’s actions that would have influenced the plot greatly had it not been made, but rather as a symbolic condensation of a lot of trauma and pain that Ned carried with him from the rebellion (and a sign of R+L= J). Ned agonizing over that promise had nothing to do with regretting that he made it; that’s him agonizing over the toll that promise took on his loved ones and his relationship with them. That promise meant Jon’s life. What part of Ned’s narrative could ever be read as him regretting that he saved Jon or being open to any option that endangered him? This is the guy who was willing to let Cersei go to save Joffrey, the one who was furious over the murder of Princess Elia and her children and the threat to Daenerys. There is no way he’d have chosen anything but to protect his nephew. Allowing the murder of children or willingly putting them in danger is anathema to Ned Stark and something we’ve seen him not only fighting against but putting himself on the line to prevent. Compassion is such a hallmark of Ned’s character that even thinking about him possibly not doing everything in his power to protect Jon, with or without the promise, is unfathomable to me. The links above encompasses a lot of my thoughts about this subject so I won’t repeat myself but I will say that I don’t think that Ned would have acted differently if Lyanna had not made him promise her. There is no other “bad choices”. Ned was always going to protect Jon because that’s the kind of man he is.