What do you think Lyanna’s stance on the whole prophecy thing was? Lots of fans defended Rhaegar’s action by saying that Lyanna was in love and knew that their child would be tptwp. I know that the Starks value their family, but what about their view on prophecy? Is there anywhere in the books where we can find how Lyanna considered the idea that its worth it to risk her famliy’s lives for a greater good?

I’m not really a fan of this argument. At all.

One, it treats belief in the plausibility of the prophecy as a given, easy and effortless and reliable to the point where two women – Lyanna and Elia because this argument only creeps up when someone wants to argue they agreed to everything Rhaegar did – would be ready and willing to risk their families for it, solely on Rhaegar’s word. But, as the main novels prove, it’s a rare person who would give credence to what sounds like fable and old wives’ tales without a shred of evidence. Despite its actual accuracy, the prophecy isn’t an easy thing to believe – see the reaction of everyone who hears about the Others without actually seeing them in canon for reference, from Tyrion to Bowen March (and that’s when there is eyewitnesses to the dead rising). See the reaction to Daemon the Dreamer in the Mystery Knight, or to Jojen’s dreams in Winterfell for an idea of the common response to prophetic dreaming. No one believes the stories until they see the Others with their own eyes. Some, like March, even go to great lengths to deny the testimonies of those who saw them because believing that they are lying is easier than believing that mystical beings that raise the dead are attacking Westeros. The more likely reaction to the prophecy from anyone is disbelief, with the possible exception of the Targaryens because belief in prophecy is a very intimate and almost natural thing to a dynasty that survived because of a dreamer. But there were still skeptics within the Targaryens; Daeron the Drunken’s prophetic dreams certainly don’t seem to have been given much credence or understanding by his father Maekar, and it does not seem like Bittersteel put any stock in Daemon the Dreamer’s predictions of a dragon hatching at Whitewalls.

As far as the Starks go, while we don’t have anything specific that denotes how they might have received the prophecy, it bears mentioning that Ned dismissed Catelyn’s fears of “darker things beyond the Wall” as inspired by crib tales, and said that the Others and the Children of the Forest died eight thousand years ago. Maester Luwin even thought they never existed at all. Considering that any knowledge Lyanna had of the Others, like Ned’s, would have come from Old Nan’s stories, and that Maester Walys – a Reachman and son to one of the archmaesters of the Citadel – is no more likely to have believed that the Others existed than Maester Luwin, I think Lyanna was more likely to share Ned’s view than Rhaegar’s. Bear in mind that she grew up listening to tales of the Others as scary stories from Old Nan so her association of the prophecy is more likely to be “those silly stories from my ancient caregiver that she told to entertain and scare us” than “oh god, there is an ice zombie apocalypse coming and I have to have a child to stop it”.

Two, this argument ignores recent history as a strong incentive for anyone not to believe the prophecy. The birth of the prophetic saviors is tied to the return of the dragons, and everyone knows what happened the last time a Targaryen chased dragons: Summerhall.

The Targaryens had tried to bring dragons back for over a century to no avail to the point where tales of dragons in Essos were dismissed by almost everyone in current time as crazy tales. The most recent try had almost wiped out the Targaryen dynasty completely while they chased what sounded like pipe dreams and fanciful destinies. That’s not something that inspires faith or trust in any Targaryen who starts talking about dragons and saviors and three heads of the dragon, or their mental capability.

Three, this just waves away Lyanna’s personality completely as this inconsequential thing that won’t shape her response to the thought of having to do something. Lyanna Stark was not dutiful. She was not one to acquiesce to something simply because it was expected of her or it was her duty regardless of any other consideration. She’d be more likely to rail against it actually, especially in a scenario where her very wellbeing would be at risk. She was also 14 years old. What 14-year-old thinks it’s a good idea to be a vessel for a savior? What 14-year-old thinks it acceptable to be carried as far away from her family as she could get just so she could be impregnated with a prophecy child? And based on what, Rhaegar’s word?

Four, even if I accept that Lyanna did believe in the prophecy, the idea that it somehow absolves Rhaegar is a myth. It does not change the political calamity he caused by vanishing with Lyanna for months. It does not change his willingness to kill Lyanna’s own brother to retain the throne or his fighting in his father’s name. It does not change the fact that Rhaegar was the adult in this situation, an adult who knew fully well that Lyanna’s pregnancy at her age was high risk but left her in a desolate tower in the care of three Kingsguard instead of providing proper medical care. It does not change Lyanna’s young age and how susceptible it made her to pressure from Rhaegar, not made at all better by the inherent power imbalance in the relationship, which was only compounded by Lyanna’s isolation and complete dependence on Rhaegar and his Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. It does not change that there was literally no reason for Rhaegar’s haste in acquiring the third head of the dragon, or for choosing the stupidest and most callous way to accomplish it. 

Rhaegar’s actions don’t cease to have consequences if Lyanna believed in the prophecy. His accountability and complicity in instigating the rebellion do not get erased if Lyanna believed in the prophecy. Rhaegar had a responsibility to Lyanna, her baby and the realm (not to mention Elia and her children), and he squandered it. He should have known better. He should have done better.

Five, any love Lyanna might or might not have felt for Rhaegar, any belief she might or might not have had in the prophecy promptly goes up in smoke the minute she learns about Rickard and Brandon, and Rhaegar decides to declare for the man who killed them and go fight Ned. That loses Rhaegar any credibility or any trust Lyanna had in him. I don’t believe that Lyanna would ever think the lives of her family are worth sacrificing ~for the greater good~. We’ve seen Stannis Baratheon, a grown man and a hardened battle commander, struggle with that very same notion, but Lyanna, at most 15 at the time and attached to her family as she was, should accept it on the word of the man who probably assured her that things would be alright, only for Lyanna’s family to get brutally murdered as a result? That’s too unbelievable for me.

I also have to ask: why should Lyanna accept that greater good argument when it’s her family that payed the price while Rhaegar demonstrated absolute refusal to pay for anything he’s done or even compromise? If sacrifice is expected–needed even– why did Rhaegar refuse any risk to his throne, even if retaining the throne came at the cost of Ned’s life?

spookyloop:

There must be some kind of a new Tumblr virus going on, I’ve gotten two chat messages from long-time followers this morning asking for help and linking to a Bitcoin wallet. (Two different versions of basically: “Hey what’s up? I need help with X. I need X amount of money but am short by X amount. This is my Bitcoin wallet number: cniowebebf”.)

I can’t say how someone gets affected by it (probably clicking on a link), but check your chat history to see if you’ve sent messages like that, change your password, do a scan, and always avoid clicking dodgy links!

December 6th, 2017

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10 am Palestine time:

Israeli forces are attacking Palestinian protesters in Bethlehem, Hebron, and Tubas who went out to protest the US decision to move its embassy to  Jerusalem. 

Israeli forces are raiding homes in the Palestinian neighborhood of Isawiya in Jerusalem

Israeli troops are carrying out mass arrests throughout the West Bank.

80 Israeli settlers stormed Al-Aqsa mosque compound under Israeli army protection. 

Summary to what happened on December 6th:

-Israel arrested between 40-50 Palestinians, mostly influential activists, who organize protests
-Palestinian Universities and schools declared a strike.
-Massive clashes erupted in Jerusalem after Trump’s speech, here’s a video:

December 7th, 2017

-Protests erupted in Gaza (Near Gaza border), West Bank, and Jerusalem
-Protests were most violent in Qalqilia, Jericho, Hebron, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Tulkarm and Nablus.
-114 Palestinians were wounded 
-Israel bombed Gaza with field strikes. 

December 8th, 2017

12:05 am Palestine time (Which is the time right now as I’m writing this)

-Israeli forces are attacking Palestinian protesters in the Palestinian town of Husan near Bethlehem.
-Anticipation that today’s (Friday) protests will be more violent. 

1:10 am Palestine time

Israeli forces: 

-Wounded 9 Palestinians by firing rubber coated steel bullets at them near Ramallah (Basically they’re regular bullets covered with a rubber layer) 
-Arrested a Palestinian man in his 20s in Tulkarm
-Are raiding the Palestinian city of Qalqilia 

7:10 am Palestine time

-Israeli forces raids the Palestinian neighborhood of Isawiya in Jerusalem again and other parts of Jerusalem, reported that they kidnapped between 16-20 Palestinians from their homes and reported that they were physically beating them as they were taking them away. 
-Israeli forces closed off entrances/exits to Al-Arroub refugee camp in Hebron and is surrounding it. 

11:50 am

-Protests erupted in Nabi Saleh, Al-Janiya, Ramallah, Qalqilia, Hebron, and Jerusalem and Israeli forces are responding with force and live ammunation

-Dozens of Palestinians detained/abducted by Israelis forces

-Photo from Hebron:

image

12:20 PM 

-Protests erupted at the Erez crossing in Gaza, and near Nablus.

12:41 PM 

-Protests erupt inside al-Aqsa mosque compound: Photo

12:51 PM Palestine time

-Protests erupt at the Damascus Gate in Old City of Jerusalem, and in Bethlehem, Israeli forces are responding with force. 

01:29 PM

-Casualties reported awaiting official reports to confirm numbers 
-Israeli forces are now using more live ammunition against protesters
-40 Palestinians have been wounded in Nablus (Confirmed)
-Israeli forces attacked journalists in Jerusalem. 
-Israeli forces are attacking Palestinian protesters in al-Aqsa mosque
-Israeli forces are firing towards Palestinian towns in Gaza adjacent to the border. 
-Israeli forces are vandalizing Palestinian stores in the Old City of Jerusalem
-Protests erupted in the town of Kafr Qaddum and Jenin
-More Palestinians were detained (awaiting official reports to confirm numbers)

1:50 PM

– Protests erupt in 48 Palestine (Israel) in the Palestinian cities of Kafr Kana, Tamra, Umm al-Fahm, Qalansuwa , Kafr Qasim, Jaljuliya and Kafr Qara.

4:00 PM

-Israeli forces murdered 30 year old Palestinian man,

Mahmoud al-Masri, near Khan Yunis
-More than 220 Palestinians have been wounded by Israeli forces. 

Summary for the rest of December 8th:

-Israeli forces murdered another Palestinian, his name was Maher Atallah 54 years old from Gaza

-800 Palestinians wounded by Israeli forces from tear gas suffocation to live ammunition and airstrikes

-Israel launched several air strikes on Gaza 15 Palestinians were wounded as a result, including women and children. Israel allegedly claiming it was in self defense. (Don’t know how bombing women and children is considered self defense)

-Tensions are rising between Gaza and Israeli army, experts warn of a potential war

<p><h2>December 9th, 2017</h2><p>

5 am Palestine

-Israel attacked Gaza and Khan Yunis with several airstrikes, casualties not reported.

What happens if Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna when he isn’t already married?

Nothing changes. He does not have a significant other to insult, cool, but he still breaks every chivalric code by all but announcing his designs on a noblewoman in front of her fiance. That’s strike one. Strike two is carrying her off and leaving her family in the dust, which is an abduction as far as anyone is concerned. It’s Rhaegar that makes overtures towards Lyanna. It’s Rhaegar that carries Lyanna off with the help of his Kinsguard. These are unilateral actions from the second most powerful man in Westeros that infringes on social mores, vassal’s rights, and basic law. There is no ambiguity in the message that sends to the Starks or to Robert: “I wanted her so I took her.”

Rhaegar’s marital status is inconsequential here. No one would have thought that Rhaegar took Lyanna so he could marry her (which would still be questionable in its own way). Everything that Rhaegar did communicates a disregard of rules and law. He takes a noblewoman on a whim, offends two Lords Paramount in pursuit of personal pleasure (or so it appears), and shows a complete lack of care about pesky things like formal betrothals and proper code of conduct and, oh idk, consent? We can argue that Lyanna left “willingly” but literally no one had any way of verifying that. Because Rhaegar vanished with her.

from what we know of in the books, was hoster tully a good/respected leader? would tywin lannister respect him? had he been healthy, would he have been a valuable asset for robb in the war, or would he have complicated things

turtle-paced:

A valuable asset. Catelyn describes him in Catelyn V, ACoK as “a strong man, and proud.” Even if there’s not much about Hoster’s capabilities as a general, the impression we get is that Hoster Tully’s no fool. Indeed, his first and one of his only major political actions in the series itself is to see right through one of Tywin Lannister’s schemes.

“Edmure agrees, we must pay Gregor Clegane back his bloody coin,” Ser Marq declared, “but old Lord Hoster commanded us to come here and beg the king’s leave before we strike.”

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he’d sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he’d taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king’s peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

– Eddard XI, AGoT

Jaime Lannister notes that Hoster Tully held his ground against some of his stroppier bannermen.

“Every great lord has unruly bannermen who envy him his place,” he told her afterward. “My father had the Reynes and Tarbecks, the Tyrells have the Florents, Hoster Tully had Walder Frey. Only strength keeps such men in their place.[”]

– Jaime VII, ASoS

When Catelyn departs Riverrun for Renly’s camp, she thinks,

What could she do but accede, praying that her father would live until her return? Had Lord Hoster been well, he would have gone himself, she knew.

– Catelyn II, ACoK

So we know that he’s a decent diplomat. He travelled a lot in his youth, according to Catelyn, and was often away visiting parts of the Riverlands, doing his best to impose his will on his fractious bannermen.

We also know he made politically good matches for his daughters and tried to do the same for his brother and his son.

“Even so,” Lord Hoster muttered. “Even so. Spit on the girl. The Redwynes. Spit on me. His lord, his brother … that Blackfish. I had other offers. Lord Bracken’s girl. Walder Frey … any of three, he said … [”]

– Catelyn XI, AGoT

Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon Stark and married Ned in his place; Lysa was close to being betrothed to Jaime Lannister (Hoster rejected a match between Lysa and Tyrion out of ableism) and eventually married Jon Arryn. He also tried to arrange a match between Edmure and Arianne Martell. (The Princess in the Tower, AFFC) He’s got a good appreciation for what those matches could bring him and his children – politically speaking, anyway. His lack of consideration for Brynden and Lysa personally did some serious damage.

The Riverlands are hard to rule, and the Tullys aren’t the strongest of the Great Houses by a long shot. Even so, Hoster Tully was a capable politician who would have been an asset to his nephew.

What happens if Viserys is born a girl? Does Aerys make Rhaegar wait for her to grow up? Does this make running away with Lyanna more palatable (it still screws up the SA block & interferes with the vassal alliance but at least Lyanna is not dishonored as a public whore just a runaway princess)? I doubt Rhaella would crown her daughter. Would Varys scoop up the valuable pawns for his game?

Even if Aerys betroths Rhaegar to his sister, that does not make running away with Lyanna more palatable in the slightest. Rhaegar still commits a major faux pas in making romantic overtures to the daughter of a Lord Paramount right in front of her betrothed. He still has a princess bride that he insults by his actions. He still vanishes with the same girl he displayed romantic interest in disregarding the offense he makes. The only thing this scenario accomplish is take House Martell off the list of Great Houses Rhaegar alienates. It does not change the circumstances of the crown prince apparently abducting the daughter of a Lord Paramount and fiancee of another (who was not seen as a whore but as a victim of the prince) which is a profound insult. Rhaegar vanished with Lyanna for months. Even if he married her, no one knew that

This really changes nothing in terms of the rebellion. What it does the change is the legal status of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna if one took place, and subsequently Jon’s legal standing. 

And Rhaella would still crown her daughter. She is definitely not going to recognize the kingship of the man who killed her firstborn.

Had Viserys married Laena and had sons/daughters but still kept Rhaenyra as heir would Rhaenys and Corlys raise a fuss about the Strong boys? Or would they cut their losses and support Rhaenyra/Laenor if Laena’s girls were betrothed to Rhaenyra’s sons? Where does that leave Daemon?

If Viserys had married Laena, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have married Laenor in the first place. The expectation of Lord Corlys and Princess Rhaenys would be that the succession would follow Laena’s sons rather than Rhaenyra, even with the acclamation ceremony Viserys had for Rhaenyra. After all, if Princess Rhaenys’ rightful birthright could be set aside on account of gender, it would be expected that Rhaenyra’s – legally inferior to that of a trueborn brother in the first place – would receive the same treatment. The difference here is that Corlys and Rhaenys were better political actors than the Hightowers and weren’t out to settle a personal score with Rhaenyra like the Hightower-Targaryens so you’d have a different scenario in the wake of Viserys’ death. The Velaryons would almost certainly solve the issue peacefully by calling a Great Council to settle the inheritance, which is no skin off their noses because the claim of a male male-line heir is strongest. A lord’s son comes before his daughter in inheritance. And for those who supported Princess Rhaenys and Laenor in the previous Great Council, the succession of Rhaenys’ grandson would only be setting matters to right. The blood of the original heiress would be the one ruling Westeros. Though I do not think that Rhaenyra (or Daemon) would take that lying down, her body of support would dwindle significantly if she was defying the will of a Great Council, and the Velaryon-Targaryens would have legal cause to brand her a usurper.

If Laena has only daughters though, that puts the succession between Rhaenyra and Daemon. The Sea Snake might try to broker the marriage between Rhaenyra and Laenor but I don’t know if Viserys would agree to it (and that wouldn’t erase Daemon’s very strong claim.) It really depends on what matches Laena’s daughters make – Rhaenyra’s sons or Daemon (or a son of his). Viserys makes the former more likely, but Lord Corlys would prefer the latter. In this scenario, the rougish Daemon likely wouldn’t pursue Rhaenyra if his claim was strongest (as per the Great Council of 101 and other precedents like Jaehaerys I and Baelon’s claims being put ahead of their respective nieces). Why would he content with the title of consort when he could be a king in his own right? Too, if the three possibly-not-surnamed-Velaryon Strongs exist, Daemon would almost certainly use them to neuter Viserys’ declaration of Rhaenyra as heir on grounds of adultery and treason to clear the way for his own ascension. So this scenario ends in war between Daemon and Rhaenyra, or in Daemon’s ascension to the throne in his own right. Neither of which is a particularly pleasant outcome.