januarium

replied to your post

“@theredandwhitequeen
replied to your post “Infinity War was…”

Thor says (this I had to actively listen for this on my second viewing) “half their people are dead”. Because that’s Thanos’ bag EVEN WHEN IT IS A PEOPLE WHO LITERALLY JUST LOST WELL OVER HALF THEIR POPULATION *ahem* so I guess Valkyrie lead the group that escaped

Yeaaaah, that’s more like 2% of the population at best, Thor.

I’ve only seen the movie once so I might have missed something but…. how does that work? I get that’s the way Thanos works but there was one ship and all remaining Asgardians were on board. Did Thanos randomly pick some of them and put them on another ship? Did Heimdall help them escape? Did Thor and Valkyrie enact an escape plan? We started the movie half way through that attack and I don’t remember getting any explanation?

Infinity War was definitely a trip. Imperfect and struggling a bit in balancing the weight of so many characters but overall succeeds admirably considering the scale of what it’s trying to do. I was a bit jarred by the instant hurl into a high tension scene with Thanos taking down the Asgardians which I think is the weakest sequence in the movie for how it renders a lot of Ragnarok moot and for how it leaves much unexplained (am I to assume that Valkyrie died offscreen? Why did Heimdall choose Bruce and not Thor to send to earth? Was it a matter of who had Thanos’ attention least which gives Heimdall the chance to do it uncontested? Was it a matter of Heimdall choosing the person with the least chance to survive in space to save? What is the thought process here?) The emotional notes of that scene didn’t land with me for some reason too, despite good acting from all parties involved. Ebony Maw was brilliant though. The only lackey I found anywhere near interesting.

It was given that the movie won’t or rather can’t give a proper arc to every single character but their integration in the story worked better for some than others. Some, like Nebula and Shuri, were utilized in a very specific place to carry one thread of the story forward in a way that felt neither intrusive nor underutilized. They were put in the right place at the right time. Some, like Steve and Nat, were shockingly underused and I found myself wanting some kind of explanation to where they were and what they were doing. There were some really nice moments, like their appearance to aid Wanda and Vision, and Steve’s square off to Ross but that’s a bit too little. I also may be over Quill and his brand of humor. The Guardians’ (bar Rocket’s) comic moments landed so far below the collective bickering of Tony, Strange and Peter on the entertaining scale so I was mostly rolling my eyes. Honestly, it’s only Rocket and Gamora who had my attention of the Guardians.

Where I think the movie really shined is the character interactions. They’ve managed to come up with a winning mix of characters in every scene, and everyone played off each other beautifully. I did not know how much I needed Bucky and Rocket pairing off till I saw it! Even the little tendrils of interactions like the one between Bruce and Shuri worked really well. I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked Strange in this movie since I’m meh on him, but his dynamic with Tony and Peter was terrific. Okoye with Nat and Wanda, Steve with T’Challa and with Vision, Sam with Rhodey, Thor with Rocket and Groot, Thanos with Gamora and with Tony. The movie certainly delivered on the promise of what these characters’ interaction could be like and it’s that that made the ending so devastating. I hate whoever chose who died in front of who because that was not okay on so many levels, and Tom Holland is officially on my shitlist for improvising that damn death scene, but man did it pack a punch. From that fleeting second of horrified incomprehension when Bucky disintegrates in front of Steve, to the completely different but equally gutting disappearance of Sam and Peter, to T’Challa crumbling as he pulled Okoye. That shot of Steve on the ground with his head in his hands next to Vision’s body and what we know are Bucky and Wanda’s ashes is so damn heavy, so is the one of Tony after Peter’s death. Whatever the parts that didn’t engage me were, the emotional beats leading up to that end were so well done and well served.

So for a gamble of that magnitude and a movie with such an ambitious goal, I say it largely delivered. It’s an unexpected ending with Marvel essentially collapsing half of its universe on itself. It may be a bit undercut by our knowledge that the dead characters have to come back because like 75% of them have upcoming movies but it did not take away from the impact for me, which is to the movie’s credit that it manages it despite every expectation for the characters to return. It’s an ending that will take me a while to process.

ramzesfics

reblogged your post and added:

[….] where did the idea of having the option
to safely say “no” go? Someone thinks that Elia actually could safely
say “no” to the man who decided that this was the only night he had to
fuck her in? (Remember, this night was very important to him, else he
would have tried again before and after.) But this possibility isn’t
even mentioned. The entire
awfulness of the situation is waved away with a tentative, “MAY be
utterly callous… it does interfere with her consent”… Makes me wonder
where the callousness is. If Elia was this willing, Rhaegar is not
callous at all. It was her choice, after all. Her risk to take.

Earth to
fandom: a consent interfered with is not a consent freely given.
Amazing, I know, but this is a concept that doesn’t only apply to cutely
wilful wolf-blooded girls of fifteen, it also applies to until recently
bedridden Dornish princesses who almost certainly knew that waiting for
a mere month or two vastly improved their chances of going through
pregnancy successfully but had prophecy obsessed husbands. For the
record, I also wouldn’t call Rhaegar a rapist. Elia most certainly
thought it was her wifely duty. But it sure as hell falls under the
definition of “a little rapey”, like many things in GRRM’s world.

I’ll choose to ignore the blatant hostile and condescending tone you use
throughout your reply in favor of addressing your points. But perhaps
next time you might think of toning that down. Your points can be easily
made without talking down to me

like that, and less hostility makes for a more productive discussion instead of a shouting match.

Anyway.

I clearly said that Elia’s consent is interfered with. I clearly said that it isn’t a healthy situation. My point is that calling it rape, or a bit rapey which is essentially the same thing, puts Rhaegar as the perpetrator and the one responsible for that which I don’t agree with. The problem with Elia’s consent, in my interpretation, is that the sociopolitical culture of Westeros inherently undermines free consent. That stands true for most Westerosi marriages. It’s a society whose politics and power structure is maintained through arranged marriage which doesn’t really bother with clear and free consent. It commodifies highborn individuals, especially women, as pawns to be used to gain alliances, political power, status, economic privileges, etc. It engenders a significant power disparity between genders which translates to men having inordinate power over their wives, which is then exacerbated by the societal pressure it places women under by holding them to a rigid structure of conduct. Society says that providing sex to their husbands is a duty, that bearing and rearing children is a duty, that giving access to their very bodies is. a. duty. On top of that, it makes it that their political legacy and power is intrinsically tied to their children. Outside of ruling ladies, noble women maintain power through their children so having children seizes to be only a thing they are taught is their duty, and quite literally becomes a way of securing the mother’s place. In a society where women are subject to men’s power and whims, that is an important objective.

All that makes consent a mess. That’s what the make-up of Westerosi society does; it removes true sexual agency from people. That stands especially true for women, particularly those in certain ranks where providing children becomes a political obligation. That absolutely interferes with consent so I can see where it can be called rape. My problem comes from the fact that we’d be basically calling pretty much every marriage in Westeros rape that way, because consent is interfered with everywhere. So is Ned the same as Robert? Is Stannis the same as Aerys? Is the consent issues the same? I can’t say that. Which is why I draw a line between “yes, there is an issue with consent here but that doesn’t makes this person a rapist” and “someone is clearly and deliberately ignoring consent and/or creating a situation where consent can’t be given”. Rhaegar/Elia are in the first category, Rhaegar/Lyanna in the second. I hesitate to draw parallels between them, and it’s not because Lyanna is white and Elia isn’t.

It’s because that while I think that Elia’s consent is interfered with because she is under pressure; this pressure didn’t necessarily come from Rhaegar’s person. You have a valid point in criticizing me for not allowing a margin of error because yes, it is possible that Rhaegar himself pressured Elia because there was a comet in the sky this specific night (though I’m not sure where your confidence that this was the only night of intercourse between Rhaegar and Elia comes from). My interpretation differs, partly because I don’t see any instance where Martin hints that the situation isn’t what it appears to be, partly because I’m almost certain that this is an example of his inability to math and that he just didn’t notice that having Elia bedridden for six months after Rhaenys’ birth but having Rhaenys and Aegon born in two successive years when Rhaenys couldn’t have been possibly born any earlier than late 280 leaves a very small window for Aegon’s conception. The author’s doylist math challenges should not overwhelm in-universe explanations but it lends a useful frame in light of the lack of additional evidence. So my point is that while Elia’s consent is interfered with, it’s not necessarily Rhaegar who caused that interference and thus should be blamed for it. Which the original ask does.

In terms of the comparison between Elia and Lyanna, I don’t parallel them because their ability to consent isn’t the same. On account of age alone, there is a whole lot of difference to what Elia could hypothetically consent to as a 25-year-old and what Lyanna could consent to as a 14-year-old. Elia can consent to sex with Rhaegar, Lyanna can not. It is not possible. The situation is drastically different as well; it’s possible that Rhaegar pressured Elia but it’s just as possible that Elia agreed willingly (and I hear what you say about the dangers this could pose to her fertility and don’t disagree. But Martin has eschewed that logic way too many times for me not to see this as a solid possibility.) Rhaegar held power over both Elia and Lyanna that could be used to coerce, that’s true, but Elia’s ability to say yes to her husband with whom she has a comparable maturity level and rank, in their home, with a loyal retinue in the vicinity is starkly different from Lyanna’s ability to say yes when she has none of that. That does not mean that Elia couldn’t be coerced, but the two situations are not comparable. In Lyanna’s case, Rhaegar created the situation that prevented Lyanna’s consent to be valid or free. He deliberately perpetuated a chain of events that left her at a disadvantage, isolated and completely vulnerable to the crown prince and three loyal Kingsguard.
Rhaegar himself unambiguously interfered with Lyanna’s consent.

The difference here is that there is a possibility for Elia to consent, but that isn’t true for Lyanna.

Finally,
I admit I’m a bit confused. You say that you also wouldn’t call Rhaegar a
rapist for this. You concur that Elia probably thought it was her
wifely duty. So the issue seems to be that you think I brushed away the
awfulness of the situation. Except…. do I need to point out that a
woman feeling it’s her duty to provide children for her husband or to
secure herself is fucked up? Sometimes I do spell it out. But sometimes I
rely on the fact that people reading don’t need me to tell them that’s
not right. I acknowledge that it’s not a healthy situation. I
acknowledge that Elia’s consent is suspect. There are consent issues but I
don’t call it rape because I blame Westerosi mores that wreaks havoc with consent on the best of days. So I haven’t ignored the awfulness
of the situation as much as that you think my word choice makes it too tentative. But at the same time you refer to me saying “Elia might”
in my post as “a long post why this woman had almost
certainly decided it was the best
idea ever, her saving grace!”. Okay?

If any of Rhaegar’s other siblings survived to adulthood, do you think it would have changed his view of the prophecy? Or would he be myopic and still think it had to be only his kids and none of siblings or their kids?

You mean as in change his view of the identity of tptwp to one of his siblings or their kids? Not without a specific set of happenings at their birth to convince him. Note that Rhaegar’s identification of Aegon as
the
prophesied savior

came from a set of circumstances that could be constructed as the signs described in the prophecy: the comet as the bleeding star and the volcanic island of Dragonstone providing the salt and smoke. To Rhaegar’s mind, with Aegon identified as tptwp, it had to be Rhaenys and the as-of-yet unborn third child that were the other two heads of the drago, as I believe that Rhaegar thought the three heads referred to siblings.

I do wonder if his siblings’ survival would interfere with his transfer of the prophesied destiny from himself to Aegon though, if he’d be more attached to the idea that he was tptwp.
We’re missing way too much information on Rhaegar’s thought process to
determine that with any degree of certainty but I’ve
theorized before that the absence of siblings (and thus other heads for the dragon) for so long
till Viserys might have played a part in disabusing Rhaegar from the
notion of being tptwp making it easier for him to switch the prophetic
destiny onto Aegon. But it’s just as possible that the distinctness of a
comet appearing on the night of Aegon’s conception would still catch
Rhaegar’s eye, even if he does have living siblings. The
visibility of the comet and how easily it can be interpreted as the
bleeding star of the prophecy and a herald that does not exist in
Rhaegar’s case might be enough to sway Rhaegar either way. After all,
Aegon can be seen to meet the specifications mentioned in the prophecy
more accurately than Rhaegar, so I can see him still changing his
mind about the identity of the prophesied savior and bestowing that on
Aegon.

Hi! I’ve only just started reading your metas but they’re all so eloquent and amazing and informative. Thank you for sharing this with your followers! In an alternate universe where Lyanna and Robert were married, how do you think Lyanna would have felt enduring Robert do all of the horrible stuff he did to Cersei, but to her (like Robert raping her, sleeping around/cheating on her, over drinking and eating and generally being unpleasant.) How would he have treated Lyanna differently? (1/2)

Do you think he would have raped and abused Lyanna as well? Since he claimed to love her

You’re very kind, anon. Thank you!

I don’t doubt that Lyanna would have been miserable with Robert, not for one second. It’s all good and well for Robert to claim to love Lyanna but as many people, myself included, have argued, Robert didn’t know Lyanna and was only in love with a fantasy that he might as well have been in love with a doll that he named Lyanna for all he projected his desires and dreams on her. No, I don’t think Robert’s so-called love would have spared Lyanna from what would still almost certainly be an abusive marriage. It’s not like his love for Ned spared Ned from his habitual revolting behavior either.

It would take a fundamental change in Robert’s personality for him to be any better to Lyanna than he was to Cersei, and I don’t see a reason for that miraculous personality change to happen in this au. He’d still drink. He’d still sleep around. He’d still force himself on his wife. He’d still go off at her and blame it on external circumstances, but not himself. Never himself.

That would take way too much self-awareness and accountability than he is capable of. Robert might not hate Lyanna the way he hated Cersei but the likelihood of resentment is high as the manic pixie dream girl from Robert’s imagination makes way for the real Lyanna who is stubborn, willful and is about as interested in keeping her mouth shut and not “shaming” Robert as Cersei ever was. Robert tends to take his resentment out on the people around him for not being the way he wants them to be (see Cersei, her children, Stannis) which doesn’t bode well for Lyanna.

The one thing that might work in Lyanna’s favor is that Robert would get
his heart’s desire of being Ned’s brother via his marriage to her, but
as Robert’s behavior with Ned himself in OTL shows, even this affection
only goes so far. Robert also wouldn’t outrank his father-in-law like in
canon, but whatever protection this equal playing field might offer Lyanna is
minimal because of Westerosi mores that give men way too much power
over their wives. The distance between the North and the Stormlands
definitely wouldn’t make it easy for Rickard to be kept apprised of the
happenings in the Storm’s End household anyway.
Perhaps if Ned follows his sister and foster brother to Storm’s End though (or is sent there by Rickard and/or Jon Arryn to try and press Robert into being a responsible adult. Oh how Stannis would love that). I reckon that would restrain Robert to some extent, at least in public or in front of Ned since he’d hate for Ned to know. But that’s really a fig leaf. It’s not a long-term solution. Neither does it change how Robert is.

In terms of how Lyanna would have felt, miserable is the first word that comes to mind. Pissed, I reckon. Contemptuous. Resentful and not just towards Robert. She didn’t want this marriage but her father didn’t listen. She told Ned that Robert would step out on her but Ned didn’t listen. She was right and they were wrong, but it is her who is paying for their wrongness. Her who is trapped in a loveless and abusive marriage to a man child who only wants to drink, sleep around, and evade responsibility. Lyanna’s best case scenario is if Robert’s desire to escape to the Free Cities to become a sellsword survives in this AU, and he fucks off and leaves her in peace.