Even if we don’t factor in everything that happens to elia during Robert’s rebellion, rhaegar’s first mother in law still comes out looking very selfish. She knew her daughter was of febel health yet she used her to further her own agenda. And even if she didn’t do it to spite tywin an agenda stays an agenda. She viewed rhaegar as the ultimate price to win for her kid. Shouldn’t considering her lack of health a good parent keep their child unmarried so they won’t have to go through childbirth?

Wow! Just when I thought I’ve seen it all, this happens. Right. Give me a second while I decide between laughing bitterly and crying in frustration. Okay, okay. I’m good.

First of all, all your message is telling me is that you think that the
mark of a good parent is preventing their child from having a family
and a normal life because they are sick. That the fact that the Princess
of Dorne sought to marry Elia at all automatically makes her a
bad parent because she should strive to prevent Elia from going through
childbirth. That is a sentence you wrote unironically. Just a question,
should she keep her a virgin too? Sex leads to pregnancy and it is the
Princess of Dorne’s responsibility as a parent to ensure that Elia
doesn’t go through childbirth for her health. Perhaps she could lock
Elia in her room lest she compromises her health doing something
strenuous too. To be a good parent.

Second, why shouldn’t the
Princess of Dorne want the ultimate prize for her daughter? Why
shouldn’t Elia get the ultimate prize? A handsome reputable man who was
going to be king and make Elia a queen, I call that wanting the best of
the best for your daughter, which isn’t a character flaw. There is a serious ableist and sexist vibe in making it sound like a bad thing that a woman got her daughter the best match possible. Why shouldn’t a parent aim for the starts for their kid?

Third,
can fandom please stop acting like ambition in women is such a condemnable thing? I’m not exactly a proponent of the politics of
arranged marriages and how it commodifies people but… countless
parents in this series have arranged political marriages for their
children and I find it curious that it’s the only female political
player among her contemporaries that gets called selfish for it. The
male characters only get condemned when they actively force their
daughters into unwanted marriages or deliberately violate their body
autonomy or blatantly treat them as broodmares, but the Princess only
has to arrange a marriage to the most eligible bachelor in the land and
secure a position for Elia that would have given her significant
political power to be called selfish and accused of being responsible
for her daughter’s death. I’m just wondering if “an agenda stays an
agenda” is reserved for the WoC or if it applies to everyone else too.

Finally,
the Princess of Dorne is shorter and easier to type than “Rhaegar’s
first mother in law” (did he have a second when I wasn’t looking?).
Perhaps next time you should consider not using Rhaegar of all people to
identify and define the Princess of Dorne. She was the ruler of her own
principality, a political power in her own right and the mother of
Doran, Elia and Oberyn. She was definitely a heck a lot more than
Rhaegar Targaryen’s mother in law.

rhaelletargaryen:

The Seven Wives of Maegor the Cruel 

 Ceryse Hightower, died of a mysterious illness; Alys Harroway, tortured to death by Tyanna of the Tower; Tyanna of the Tower herself, mistress of whispers, executed by Maegor’s own hand. The Black Brides, three women of proven fertility taken in a single ceremony: Elinor Costayne, one of the two to survive his reign; Jeyne Westerling, who died shortly after birthing a stillborn and Princess Rhaena Targaryen, who stole Blackfyre and saw her brother Jaehaerys crowned.

Hypothetically speaking, if a descendent of Dany and Jon (if they live that is, lol) is named Viserys and ascends the Iron Throne, would he be Viserys III or IV? Cause Viserys never sat the Irone Throne but, like, he was King, kinda? Same with Rhaenyra. In a world where women would get more precedence, would a Queen named Rhaenyra be Rhaenyra I or II?

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

The thing with Rhaenyra’s title was that:

When his grief had passed, King Aegon II summoned his loyalists and made plans for his return to King’s Landing, to reclaim the Iron Throne and be reunited once again with his lady mother, the Queen Dowager, who had at last emerged triumphant over her great rival, if only by outliving her. “Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed.

–The Princess and the Queen

Aegon II declared that in all court records, Rhaenyra must only be referred to as “princess”, not “queen”. And for some reason, her son Aegon III didn’t change this decree when he came to the throne. (Perhaps it was some decision or compromise of the Green and Black coalition that made up his regency council, and Aegon III didn’t have the energy to deal with it and/or think it was worth arguing over. I hope Fire & Blood will clear it up, though I don’t really expect it to.)

Therefore, unless some future monarch decides to reinstate Rhaenyra’s title and dates of rule, a future ruling Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen would be Rhaenyra I, not Rhaenyra II. Mind you, in a future where there even exists a queen Rhaenyra (consider how England has avoided such unlucky regnal names as Richard and John, and how Westeros has avoided a Maegor II), such a queen might be the very one to reinstate the original Rhaenyra within the royal records, thus declaring herself Rhaenyra II.

Similarly, Viserys was only king in exile, and neither his claimed title nor his regnal number are currently recorded in Westeros court records. However, he always insisted on his royal titles:

Beneath an arch of twining stone leaves, a eunuch sang their coming. “Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third
of his Name,” he called in a high, sweet voice, “King of the Andals and
the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector
of the Realm. His sister, Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone.”

–AGOT, Daenerys I

As does Dany:

Whitebeard bowed his head. “It is not my place to question the words of Prince Viserys.”
“King,” Dany corrected. “He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name.”

–ASOS, Daenerys I

Therefore, if Dany re-establishes a Targaryen dynasty, she will certainly record Viserys III as her predecessor, between Aerys II and herself. And thus, if one of her descendants named Viserys comes to the throne, he will be Viserys IV Targaryen. Hope that helps!

(BTW, I’m still not sure why King Jaehaerys I didn’t record his elder brother, Prince Aegon, as King Aegon II, and cross Maegor off the list as an illegal usurper. I mean, maybe it’s because Aegon was never properly acclaimed as king, but still, why keep Maegor? Was it a law thing, that to declare Maegor was never truly king would cause too much trouble with invalidating certain laws and declarations he made? Agh, another unlikely hope for F&B…)

What could or should have Egg done with his rebellious children? Putting Jenny of Oldstones in a motherhouse but would the insult still inspire a rebellion in the Baratheons?

Putting Jenny in a motherhouse might solve the issue of the marriage, but it doesn’t solve the issue of Duncan. If his love for Jenny was enough to make him give up a crown when faced with the choice of her or his inheritance, I don’t think forcing Jenny into nunnery is gonna endear him to his father’s wishes. Aegon’s children were said to have inherited their mother’s stubbornness and so I can see Duncan rebelling against Aegon’s marital design for him in retaliation, whether that meant refusing to marry the Baratheon maid, or still abdicating, both cases that would result in Aegon being in the exact same position with no crown prince to offer the Baratheons and his younger children taking note of their brother had his way, even with extreme intervention from his father.

Do you think that Rhaegar leaving Elia and his children at the Red Keep a little plot convenience? I mean Rhaegar has done some stupid things but leaving his wife, children and heir in the custody of a man who saw him as his enemy and who was paranoid(plus Rhaegar was going to overthrow him) plus expressed dislike and a prejudice of the Dornish, just plain ridiculous? Why would Rhaegar leave his family in that situation when Aerys was a dangerous threat to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar knew that?

Plain ridiculous like him publicly crowning the daughter of a Lord Paramount and the fiance of another knowing fully well what a chivalry breach that is and that his paranoid father who attended the tourney specifically because he was onto Rhaegar was sure to find this suspicious? Plain ridiculous like falling off the face of the earth with the same girl, also knowing fully well that her family and fiance would never take this lying down (Brandon had to be restrained at Harrenhal, when the king himself and almost all of the Kingsguard were present) and that his aforementioned paranoid father was sure to muck it up? Plain ridiculous like leaving a pregnant 16-year-old in the middle of nowhere with three Kingsguard with no medical experience when he was a first-hand witness to his mother’s and wife’s difficult pregnancies and knew that childbearing at a young age is extremely dangerous to mother and baby?

One event might be seen as a plot-convenient contrivance but several is a pattern of behavior that characterizes Rhaegar who has repeatedly demonstrated lack of thought in his actions starting from Harrenhal. It’s plain ridiculous for him not to think of the ramifications, I agree, but the answer as to why is simple. The prophecy. Rhaegar put so much stock in that prophecy that he willingly altered the course of his life for it (”it seems I must be a warrior”) and he continued to do so, believing that magic would just make everything alright. That’s why he never really considered the possibility of defeat before the Trident. He was so sure that he’d end the rebellion then come back, overthrow his father and enact the changes he talked to Jaime about. Magic was on his side after all, to ensure that three heads of the dragon came to be. So Elia and the children (or at least the children) were in no danger to his mind, not with Aegon and Rhaenys being two of the heads. Ditto the baby that would turn out to be Jon.

sansalayned:

Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maiden-hood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?” Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain’s head. “I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?