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goodqueenaly

replied to your post

“doublehex
replied to your post “So. I think a clarification is…”

And if Melantha and Betha Blackwood were sisters, then the Starklings are added into the (recent) Targaryen relations pool

I tend to think of Melantha and Betha as cousins but I’d be delighted if they turned out to be sisters. I mean, that Aerys and Rickard might share a great grandfather is a fascinating thought. Or that Ned/Lyanna/Brandon and Rhaegar might be cousins. Or that Ned and Robert might be cousins. That would be interesting.

Don’t you think POD was a bit abelist for refusing tyrion?

I’m a bit wary of the timing of this question since I’ve been receiving messages intent on framing the Princess of Dorne’s choice of Rhaegar for Elia in a negative light or as a character flaw. I have no way to discern if this is an attempt to hold something against the Princess or if it’s a legitimate question asked in good faith. I’m going to hope assume it is the latter because I think this is a conversation worth having.

The answer is yes, there is ableism on the part of the Princess of Dorne in this situation, not necessarily for refusing Tyrion but more for taking it as an insult that he was offered as a match. From a political standpoint, refusing Tyrion might have grounds because 1) Tyrion is a second son and thus wouldn’t be expected to inherit anything, 2) Tyrion is some 16 years younger than Elia which is not ideal for Elia’s childbearing chances and in practice pushes the actualization of the alliance for more than a decade and 3) Tyrion was expected to die soon after his birth so this match was never happening in any scenario. However, not only was that last point intrinsically tied to his dwarfism, the fact that the Princess of Dorne took it as an insult that Tywin offered Tyrion makes it clear that the issue was with his disability.
If Tyrion wasn’t a dwarf, that match wouldn’t have been either made or taken as an insult. But it is considered an insult by both sides because disabled people are seen as lacking in the eyes of Westeros.

The ableism goes both ways in this situation and it drives the reception of both offers – of Elia for Jaime, and of Tyrion for Elia. From the way Tywin instinctively connected Tyrion and Elia based on their disability, it is likely that he regarded the suggestion of Elia as a bride for Jaime as an insult that he then retaliated by offering Tyrion instead (which was ableist towards both Elia and Tyrion).
The Princess of Dorne in turn took that as a slap to the face because dwarf Tyrion was not a worthy match for Elia. Yes, Tywin did mean to insult the Princess, but if she hadn’t consider Tyrion to be inadequate due to his dwarfism, she
wouldn’t have taken the offer as an insult regardless of how Tywin meant it. That’s not to imply that both of their reactions were on the same level btw, because not only was Tywin equally driven by racism, sexism and his issues with ambitious women as he was by ableism, he also actively weaponized his ableism (towards his own son) as an act of retaliation and I firmly believe that he wanted to put both the Princess of Dorne and Elia in their place by his suggestion. While the Princess of Dorne never displayed the active maliciousness with which Tywin wields his prejudices.

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doublehex

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“So. I think a clarification is needed. I don’t hate Daenerys…”

I never even considered how most of the characters came from Targaryens. Like, I knew it, but I never really thought on it.

I once had a moment when I realized that Jon, Gendry, Brienne and Arianne are all distantly related. Hell, Jon and Gendry are third cousins, I think. Jon and Stannis are actually cousins. It’s very weird when you stop and think about it.

This Week’s #LiveAtFive Guests Include Emmy Winner Darren Criss, OITNB’s Big Boo & More

d-criss-news:

October 2 – Darren Criss, Elsie Fest

Darren Criss just won an an Emmy Awardfor Outstanding Lead Actor in a Limited Series or Movie for his incredible performance in The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story. Criss, who has bowed on Broadway in How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying and Hedwig and the Angry Inch, will appear on the October 2 episode to talk about Elsie Fest, his upcoming outdoor musical festival. The two-time Broadway.com Audience Choice Award winner began Elsie Fest in 2015 and has been bringing the biggest music stars of the stage and screen together ever since. Don’t miss out on asking him a question via Facebook on October 2.

This Week’s #LiveAtFive Guests Include Emmy Winner Darren Criss, OITNB’s Big Boo & More

So. I think a clarification is needed.

I don’t hate Daenerys Targaryen.
I’m not into Jonerys and I have my share of problems with how D&D chose to depict her in the show which heavily skewered my opinion of her at first because I watched the show before reading the books, so I did ascribe to the theory that she’d turn into an antagonist at one point, wrote about it even. Then I read A Dance With Dragons and discovered that most of the things I thought supported the theory are show-only fuckery and that the book character is extremely different from the show. So I no longer support that theory. In fact, I vehemently disagree with it. Dany might not be one of my favorites but I certainly don’t hate her. So if you send me a message either bashing her or holding her responsible for things Jon had done in the show and expect me to agree, I’m sorry but I won’t.

Also, I think people like to forget that every single Targaryen or Targaryen-blooded character we have descend from incestuous bloodlines, including Jon Snow, the current generation of Baratheons and the current and previous few generations of Martells. Mya Stone, Gendry, Edric Storm, Brienne of Tarth, all have incestuous bloodlines from their Targaryen side. Some of my ultimate favorite characters like Jaehaerys I, Alysanne and Daeron II are the result of incestuous unions (at least by US/European standards because Aenys and Alyssa’s marriage isn’t incestuous as far as I’m concerned.) I’d invite anyone who thinks that Dany being the result of an incestuous union is a mark against her character to think about why that is. Unless you think that’s a knock against all these characters too.

Why do you think rhaegar was so much in hurry to have the third child. Even if Elia was completely healthy and capable of having a third child it’s unlikely that he would have impregnated her as soon as she was out of her birthing bed and yet rhaegar abandoned her to go after lyanna only a few days after aegon’s birth. And don’t you think it’s a bit inconsiderate of him to leave his few days old baby even if it was for prophecy?

Inconsiderate? Rhaegar? You don’t say!

Sorry, sorry. My inbox is a sight and I’ve defaulted to sarcasm and tears. It’s the only thing saving my computer from an early demise against the wall.

Things is, we don’t really have any indication to why Rhaegar was in such a hurry to have the third child. I’ve seen it floated that the False Spring and the harsh winter that hit Westeros on its heels might have made Rhaegar consider it the beginning of the Long Night. It’s as good a theory as any and frankly the only one I’ve seen trying to explain this, though I’d still be stumped as to what exactly Rhaegar expected a toddler and a baby to do if this was the Long Night that he had to add another baby to the mix asap.

I’m afraid I don’t have any further thoughts about his hurry. Perhaps the above theory is correct. Perhaps Rhaegar wanted the three heads of the dragon to grow up together to establish a bond. Perhaps it has to do with Lyanna’s accessibility at the time since Rhaegar could get to her while in the Riverlands which he couldn’t do if she was inside either Winterfell or Storm’s End. Perhaps it’s something we haven’t found out about yet. I honestly have no idea, sorry!

what do you imagine elia’s life at dragonstone was

That’s a tough question to answer actually because what little information we have of Rhaegar and Elia’s marriage is lopsidedly biased towards Rhaegar. Barristan Selmy says that he was fond of Elia but we don’t know what Elia felt about him or about Dragonstone or about the political intrigues she landed smack dab in the middle of (her uncle Lewyn and countryman and likely friend Arthur Dayne were both known to be supporters of Rhaegar).

Still, what we do know paints a picture of a fairly pleasant marriage, if not a particularly loving one. The term friendly always jumps to my mind when I try to think of them before everything went to hell. That doesn’t necessarily mean it was a happy marriage though. Barristan tells us that Rhaegar didn’t have it in him to be happy and however that could be taken, I think it’s likely that he was fairly distant with Elia and way too involved in his texts and arcane lore. However, if Dany’s vision of them is any indication, and if it actually happened as-is, the fact that he shared the prophecy with Elia – when the only other person we know for a fact he discussed it with is Maester Aemon – suggests a level of trust in her. Again, that’s too heavy on Rhaegar’s side of things but considering that the only sentence we heard of Elia is her asking if he’d make a song for the newly born Aegon, anything I come up with would be little more than a headcanon. I’d like to think she had a measurement of happiness in her marriage that wasn’t linked to her children, and it’s not like Rhaegar was a revolting man or lacked good qualities.I certainly don’t mean to imply that their marriage was sad. I just doubt his capacity for truly engaging with her on a personal level and his willingness to put in the work to make their relationship more than “fond”, not when he was so absorbed by ideas about a magical responsibility and the greater good as his later actions suggest.

I think the chances of Elia being happier in her political capacity are higher. Dragonstone isn’t the most pleasant place to reside in, and it’s a far cry from warm vibrant Dorne so it must have taken Elia a good period to adjust. But she was the chatelaine of the island, free to manage her own court that probably contained a not insignificant number of Dornish people who came with her when she married Rhaegar. The distance from the racism and awfulness that permeated King’s Landing and the presence of her countrymen around her probably helped her be more relaxed in her dealings with her household, and I think that the history of her kinswoman Mariah Martell who also resided on Dragonstone with her Targaryen husband who also opposed his father was a source of inspiration and strength for her.