samwpmarleau
replied to your post “I HATE to type this, please, please believe me I truly do, but, do you…”

I feel like this question requires some suspension of disbelief. Joanna wanted Jaime betrothed to Elia; it was Tywin after her death who broke that off. There’d be no reason for Joanna to suddenly flip her opinion, so there’d be no reason for Elia to marry Rhaegar.

Not really. I’ve always been skeptical of how it’s taken as a given that the Lannister-Martell betrothal would happen if Joanna lived. Tywin is still Tywin. He is still ableist af. It never made sense to me that he’d sign off on a betrothal to the girl he equated in worth to the disabled son he loathed, in the aftermath of said son’s birth no less, even if Joanna wanted the betrothal. Lannisters have to be perfect and golden and perfect. Tywin’s need to prove that after Tyrion’s birth does not lend itself to approving his heir’s betrothal to Elia. Tywin saw Elia and Tyrion as the same due to their disability. I can not stress that part enough. They were both defective in his eyes which poses a risk to Jaime’s line that he would not abide. Tywin’s psychological hangups and innate prejudices can not let that betrothal happen. I don’t think Joanna would be able to counter that, not so soon after Tyrion’s birth.

Do you think there’s any hope for the issue of ageism in fandom to go away or do you think is the permanent opinion that the majority of fans hold now? I feel feel so lost and hopeless and like my life has no value as a women over 25. I just…I don’t wanna have to leave behind these hobbies and shows and books and movies that I’ve been so passionate about my whole life. But now I feel like a disgusting creep when I want to read fanfiction or engage with fandom content.

lettersfromtitan:

shipping-isnt-morality:

I mean, FWIW, I don’t think it’s the opinion of the majority of fans – just a vocal, vicious minority. (Which is still an awful experience.)

if you go to cons, or industry events or such, MOST people are older. They just tend to be less vocal, less overwhelmingly active at all times. The teens who are mad at adults in fandom have no idea what they’re talking about. That’s not a platitude, that’s an objective fact.

Oh, oh! Here’s some data to back this up! A lot of fans are in their 20’s-30’s, and as many are older than that as younger. I don’t have public data on hand, but believe me when I say that conventions skew even older than that. People over 18 are the vast majority of fandom.

THAT SAID, our society is ageist as fuck. It’s not just fandom you’re getting these messages from; they’re everywhere, and they’re insidious and gross. I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do, anon. But it’s a message being crafted for you, not an objective fact.

Love things, anon. Seriously, do whatever stupid thing that brings you joy. it doesn’t matter at all how old you are. So long as you’re behaving appropriately in public places (and that’s relevant to anyone), don’t listen to some random teenagers who want you to live your life only in ways that they’re comfortable with. They’re full of shit, and seriously, they are not the majority.

THERE IS NO AUTHORITY TELLING YOU TO GIVE UP YOUR INTERESTS AND HOBBIES AT 25. IF PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO TALK TO YOU IF YOU’RE OVER 25, ASK THEM WHY THEY ARE RANTING AT YOU AND THEN SHRUG AND WALK AWAY.

I HAVE BEEN IN FANDOM SINCE I WAS LIKE 13 AND PEOPLE MAILED NEWSLETTERS ON PAPER IN THE ACTUAL MAIL WITH STAMPS AND SHIT. I AM NOW 46 AND HAVE FANDOM FRIENDS I’VE KNOWN FOR DECADES.

You get to make a choice about how you want to live your life. Giving other people authority over it is generally a bad one. Respecting another individual’s boundaries about who they as an individual wish to interact with DOES NOT MEAN GIVING THEM CONTROL OVER YOUR INTERESTS AND SOCIAL GROUPS. 

Could have Daeron done anything to head off Daemon? Maybe send Aegor to the Faith/Citadel? Make sure Calla and the twins were fostered at court? It feels like the chicken and egg, trying to hedge a rebellion without justifying it.

It is a hard line to walk. You want safeguards but how much can you do before you’re the one actively inciting rebellion? The fact that there is an argument over whether Daeron contributed to Daemon’s decision to rebel by sending the Kingsguard to arrest him is a clear indication of the difficulty of finding a balance.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Daeron had many good options. Aegon IV’s machinations made even the simplest move a potential danger after he made Daemon an extremely potent rival so Daeron had to be very careful in how he acted towards him and the other Great Bastards. That flatout makes sending anyone to the FaithCitadelWall out of the question since that would be just the antagonist move that could inspire a rebellion. If it could be argued that the king was arbitrarily forcing his own kin into any of those orders “unprovoked”, it would be a rallying cry for all those who oppose him who would argue that the king is acting outside the feudal contract and perhaps even make claims of tyranny. Keep in mind that Daemon’s faction did use Daeron’s attempt to arrest Daemon as a cause for war in OTL and there is no reason that sending Aegor to one of these orders wouldn’t be used in the same way. Also, that could certainly be enough for Daemon to fear that Daeron would send him next to one of these orders in order to neutralize his claim which could end up what makes him rebel.

As for having Daemon’s children fostered at court, that is a politic approach that is not likely to antagonize Daemon, but it’s not without its downsides – it further advances Daemon’s social acceptability by having his line be court-raised same as Daeron’s own line, and puts them in a position that invites juxtaposing them against Daeron’s sons. Don’t forget that Baelor Breakspear’s Martell look attracted acrimony from those who resented the Dornish presence in court so I don’t imagine the presence of the presumably Valyrian-looking Blackfyre twins right there would do the royal family any favors. That said, fostering the twins is still be the most preventive but non-incendiary approach Daeron had despite the downsides. Daeron’s policy towards his
half-siblings was open-handed and he notably kept them close so fostering the twins would not look abnormal while it gives Daeron a useful leverage against Daemon and the chance to raise Daemon’s two immediate heirs to be loyal to their royal uncle and his heir.

That doesn’t make it impossible for Daemon to rebel mind you – the Blackfyre rebellion took place when the twin were 12 so Daemon could wait a few years till their fosterage ends or he could hope that the stigma against kinslaying, his brother’s peaceful nature,

and the affection he might have for his wards would stay Daeron’s hand from harming the twins. The fosterage doesn’t neutralize Aegor. Doesn’t remove Quentyn Ball or whatever resentment Daemon harbored. But it might make it harder to rebel, especially if his two immediate heirs don’t want to be a part of his cause which inherently damages his movement.

I HATE to type this, please, please believe me I truly do, but, do you suppose that had joanna lannister lived, yet the rest had gone according to canon, would she then condone elia’s rape, murder and her children’s murders? Thing is, this is the woman who married tywin for love after he’d done the castamere thing, as well as sexually humiliated his dad’s mistress. I don’t have a flowery view of her. At all. I sure believe she’d condone tysha and her own son’s rape. But elia? I’m not certain.

Yeaaah, I don’t share the view of Joanna as Tywin’s moral compass or the one who tempered his ruthlessness or whatnot which I reckon is not a popular view in fandom. But I don’t feel like buying into the rhetoric that Tywin is that awful figure because Joanna is gone. As you’ve said,
it’s not like Tywin wasn’t an awful misogynistic prick and a war criminal when Joanna was alive

as evidenced by Castamere and what he did to the candlemaker’s daughter. But more importantly, I find that the claim that “the best part of him died with her” absolutely reeks of abuse apologism and is a backwards way of finding a sympathetic reason for Tywin’s awfulness. Sorry guys but grief didn’t make Tywin horrible. He was already horrible before that, when Joanna still lived.

So I don’t have a flowery view of Joanna either. I don’t think it’s possible to have a flowery view of any Lannister in the current and previous generations and that includes the more sympathetic ones. They are the kings of fucked up relationships. However, I tend to think of Joanna as a Kevan-like figure who perhaps did not share Tywin’s ruthlessness and cruelty but who had no problem justifying or enabling it. She probably also shared the dehumanizing ideology that we see from the Lannisters that is built on Lannister superiority and that heavily employs the thought that smallfolk are little more than livestock. Which is why I don’t see her having any qualms about Tysha’s rape. Joanna lived through Tytos’ rule and was a firsthand witness to how his lowborn mistress walked around as if she was the lady of the Rock so I don’t think it’s only Tywin who would have seen shades of the candlemaker’s daughter in Tysha or recognized “the need” to put her in her place. Perhaps Joanna would not have chosen rape as a punishment of her own initiative, but I don’t believe she’d have interfered to spare Tysha no more than she interfered to spare Tytos’ mistress. But I’m not too sure about Tyrion. While I think that Joanna would have still been ableist and even casually abusive towards Tyrion had she lived, going as far as condoning his rape puts her on par with Tywin and I don’t think she was. She may condone a punishment but outright rape is overdoing it. Not to her son at least. This headcanon by @joannalannister probably comes closest to how I picture Joanna’s involvement in that event. Still cruel. Still psychologically damaging to Tyrion. Still abusive. But with an overlay of possessiveness. Think of Cersei’s “he’s mine” here.

As for Elia, I’m afraid I don’t have a concrete opinion about that. It’s kinda hard to say. Joanna was presumably not above condoning children’s murder considering Castamere, nor was she above condoning sexual humiliation considering Tytos’ mistress. But I tend to see Joanna as someone who didn’t shy away from condoning atrocity but also who didn’t do it as indiscriminately as Tywin. In my mind, she is someone who affords those who have a personal relationship with her a certain reprieve that is not necessarily about them but about their connection to her. The Princess of Dorne shared a personal relationship with Joanna who doesn’t appear to have shared the extent of Tywin’s racism towards the Dornish since she was willing to have one of the Martells as an in-law. Joanna also might not take Elia’s marriage to Rhaegar as a personal insult like Tywin and thus deserving of swift punishment, since I don’t think she had the same psychological hangups about powerful women and silencing the laughter like Tywin did. Joanna generally strikes me as more rational than Tywin (e.g: she took measures to separate Jaime and Cersei after they were caught together. The fact that she believed the word of a servant and acted appropriately instead of dismissing it as vicious slander and simply having the maid punished is far more aware and rational that anything we’ve seen of Tywin re that issue, which seems to be steadfast denial), so I think she wouldn’t like that Elia was raped and murdered, though that dislike probably wouldn’t amount to much. Tywin has maintained plausible deniability of his responsibility for Elia’s rape and murder, which would make it easier to justify it in the mind of someone invested in doing so. Joanna may not necessarily like it but it’s probably not something she’d condemn Tywin for.