Do Theon and Jon bond as the only boys in a household of women? Would Theon assume a role in the war? Do you see Robin pulling a Joan of Arc and leading her armies herself assuming her martial mind works here? I really like that. Tywin being trounced by the Red She-wolf of Winterfell

This is shaping up to being a series 🙂

Right. So. Do Theon and Jon bond? Hell no.

1. Jon is still a bastard and therefore of a lower social class than Theon who is, as we see, generally a jerk to those he considers “below” him.

2. Theon’s jealously of Jon’s place in Winterfell would still be the same. While they were both different kinds of outsiders in Winterfell, Jon still had his siblings and Ned’s love and regard while Theon only ever had Robb’s while the rest of them didn’t even particularly like him. Now imagine if Theon did not even have that close friendship with Robb, while Jon, more or less, still had a good relationship with most of his siblings.

3. Theon’s defense mechanism in Winterfell was to take nothing seriously while Jon, well, took everything seriously. That’s a recipe for a clash right there. Additionally, Theon was, as Jon kindly put it, an ass; too eager to kill, disrespectful of the dead, insensitive to a child’s (Bran’s) distress, dismissive and downright cruel to those of lower class, etc. There is a reason Jon never liked Theon who, thanks to sharing activities with Jon because of their close age and gender, displayed all of that right in front of Jon. That does not bode well for the chances of a friendship between the two.

– Would Theon assume a role in the war?

I don’t see a reason for him not to, I just doubt that he’d be sent to the Iron Islands to treat with Balon in this AU. That would leave him in an awful position once Balon attacks the North though.

– Do I see Robin leading her army herself?

No. Robin is not taking part in the fighting; not only is that really rare (see the reaction to Brienne and the Mormont ladies) but I also highly doubt she’d be trained at arms. I also doubt that she’d have her male counterpart’s brilliant strategic mind because I don’t think Ned would take care to instruct her on the finer points of strategy and warfare. The idea is tempting enough, as satisfying as it was to read about Robb outmaneuvering Tywin at every corner in canon, but you have to keep in mind that Ned was a product of his society, and the patriarchy doesn’t really have space for girls to have that kind of training.

(Edit: the part about Robin not being taught strategy is incorrect. Clarification here.)

If Jon bad been born a girl instead would Catelyn have felt less threatened then?

Well yeah. A bastard girl is a significantly lesser dynastic threat as she would have very low chances in gaining any kind of support in pressing a claim to Winterfell against trueborn brothers and so Catelyn isn’t constantly worried that her line would be supplanted. However, that changes little when it comes to her personal feelings towards her husband’s bastard. Girl!Jon’s presence in Winterfell is still a public insult to Catelyn, both personal and political, and her resentment that a bastard (with the Stark look no less) had been installed in Winterfell before she even made it there with the trueborn heir isn’t going to go away, or make her any warmer to the girl than she was to her male counterpart.

Keltie Knight: What did you think of each other on [Glee]?
Naya Rivera: I liked Becca from the start, she was always hilarious.
Keltie: Did you haze her, though? ‘Cause she said everyone hazed her.
Becca Tobin: No, actually, you were the only one who was really nice to me.
Naya: Yeah, no, she was, uh—we hung out.
Becca: Yeah. I would say that you and Darren [Criss] were the most like, warm people from the get-go.
Naya: And Kevin [McHale].
Becca: Oh and Kevin, yeah. But you know what? Kevin’s funny, you kind of have to like, earn your way in. Once you’re in it’s like, you’re there.
Naya: True, true.
Becca: So like, you guys were probably the most welcoming.
Naya: No, I thought you were awesome. Immediately. Immediately.

I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to sound like I was trolling you! I was just wondering how Jon should view Ned after learning about the truth and what it means for Rhaegar. I’m sorry.

No, no, don’t apologize. I made that leap so it’s on me. It’s just… somehow when I wasn’t looking, Rhaegar became the most argued about character on my blog. I don’t mind discussing him – I’ve been engaged in such a discussion over IM for the past two weeks – but I’ve gotten some, let’s say, interesting responses that were pretty much designed to pull my leg. I found the premise of your questions kinda strange and based on a dichotomy that does not really exist in the books, which is why I thought you might be trolling me in the vein of previous responses I got. I’m sorry if I made you feel bad.

I’m gonna start my response to the questions you posed in your previous ask by asserting one point: Ned Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen do not occupy even a remotely similar place in the text. There is simply no way to compare their respective narrative importance to Jon. Ned is the guy who raised Jon and the father Jon looked up to and loved.
For better or for worse, he is the only parent Jon ever had and the
father that Jon wanted to make proud; his model is the one that Jon
strove to live up to. And Jon loves
Ned and loves the family Ned raised him in, that’s not going to change just because he discovers that he is not biologically Ned’s. Because he is still Ned’s son in all the way that matter. Ned, for all his mistakes,
loved Jon and
protected him and gave him a family at a high personal cost to himself.
He besmirched his honor in order to save Jon’s life and essentially committed treason and put his life on the line by concealing him. He is an integral part of who Jon is and a vital linchpin to his identity.

So Jon would certainly be
angry (and he has every right to be), he’d probably lash out spectacularly, but
I don’t think it’d
lead him to stop seeing Ned as his father or that it’d change how he
feels about him. The bonds Jon has with
the Starks run deep and true and so I imagine that his dominant emotion once the initial shock wears off would be only sorrow.

But while Ned is personally dear to Jon, Rhaegar would be little more than a name to him, a name attached to a dark history at that. The significance of Rhaegar’s fatherhood in Jon’s arc is largely thematic because the truth about Jon’s parentage is gonna be a major hit to Jon’s self-conception and identity. Because the only identity Jon ever wanted or dreamed of is that of a Stark. He
struggled with his bastardy and the conception of his identity in light
of it but he was proud that he was Ned Stark’s kid. Finding out
that he is not Ned’s son is a hit in and of itself but then to discover
that his father is none other than Rhaegar Targaryen, oh that would be just brutal.

This is (one instance) where GRRM subverts the classic trope of the downtrodden boy with a hidden parentage and a grand destiny, because Jon’s origin story is a horror story that is going to devastate him. Not only does his real parentage remove him even further from the identity he desires, not only does it mean that the father and siblings he loves so well are not really (biologically) his own, it also comes with the sobering realization of the circumstances of his own birth. Like, the identity of Jon’s mother has always been a point of tension in his relationship with Ned, and he finally, FINALLY gets his answer, except it’s a punch in the gut.
Because the circumstances of Jon’s conception and birth are fucked up. Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna without sparing a thought to the consequences of his actions, so focused he was on getting a third child for the prophecy that everything paled in comparison, even
insulting two Great Houses and throwing the realm into war. Lyanna was his means to fulfill the prophecy and get the third head of the dragon in a situation that reeks of consent issues. It’s not a particularly happy origin story.

That’s the truth Jon will find out, the answer to his lifelong question. His mother is the sister of whom his adoptive father couldn’t talk
because of how painful it was. His father was the crown prince who is
known for carelessly breaking every chivalric code by absconding with
Lyanna Stark, the guy whose actions sent the entire realm into war and
created the situation that led to the murder of Rickard and Brandon
Stark. His father pretty much used his mother as a vessel for a
prophecy-child that she died birthing, and then his adoptive father had
to claim him as his own bastard – damaging his own marriage and lying to
both his wife and Jon himself – to prevent his best friend from murdering
baby Jon for the grand crime of existing. Jon was literally born for the purpose
of a prophecy so that he could fulfill a destiny his birth father was
willing to throw the realm into war for. So how is Jon going to react to
that? My belief is that he, in his initial anger and pain, is going to reject said destiny. He’ll reject his Targaryen heritage, he’ll reject the prophecy, he’ll reject Rhaegar and his ready-make destiny and the purpose for which he sired Jon.

And that would be the struggle in Jon’s arc and the choice he needs to make. Is he a hero because his lineage dictates it or a prophecy told it or Rhaegar decided he would be, or is he a hero because he chooses to be? Is he the maker of his own destiny or a puppet dancing to the strings of prophecy and his ancestors’ decisions? Is he fighting for humanity because he is the ready-make prophecy-child fulfilling the purpose of his birth or because it’s the right thing to do? Is he is driven by the prophecy or by hope that humanity can prevail and usher in spring after they throw back the winds of winter? Who is Jon Snow and why is he fighting?

Here’s the thing,
Rhaegar prioritized the prophecy above any and everything else. He caused a lot
of destruction in his pursuit of a prophecy-child and in the name of
saving the same realm he doomed to war. Causing a political crisis that ended up making the realm bleed was an acceptable collateral damage to him as long as he got the third head of the dragon. Jon is going to have to come to terms with the fact that this guy is his father and that he was born specifically for a prophecy;
he’ll have to accept his parentage because it’s a part of accepting himself –
you have to accept where you came from before you conceive who you are. But Jon’s parentage isn’t going to be what defines him or who he is, his own choices are. Because choosing who you become when you’re faced by the abyss is perhaps the most prominent overarching theme of ASOIAF.

Jon is not going to be a hero because Rhaegar made him one by siring him, or because a prophecy foretold his birth. If my prediction that he’ll reject the prophesied destiny that Rhaegar was willing to throw the realm into war for is true, that means that Jon is not going to be a hero because of Rhaegar but despite him.
He did not need either Rhaegar or the prophecy to put him up to fighting
the Others or saving people, he was doing that on his own and by his
own choice because he recognized that as the most important cause and the right thing to do.

Jon’s heroism is his own choice, his destiny is of his own making; he’ll fight not because his lineage compels him to or because it’s the purpose of his birth but because he genuinely wants (and chooses) to do the right thing and save the world.

mintamenapie:

Shout out to all your internet friends who are gone.

Those messenger screen names that haven’t logged on in ages, some before detailed profiles were a thing on those services.

Those emails that are long since abandoned, some with domains that no longer exist.

Those online friends you knew years ago and who then helped shaped you in some way, who you just can’t FIND anymore.

Those people who once were, and hopefully still exist IRL, that seem to have no known internet life anymore.

And those who have actually passed on, and their online lives are now a memorial to them.

I miss you all. I hope life is/was kind to you, and maybe one day, we’ll somehow connect again.

Liked your Robin Stark scenario and would like to ask more. Who would be her consort? Would Jon be close to her like canon? Or Robin wary of her wary of her bastard brother? How does the war change with Robin?

Thank you, and always feel free to ask more.

I’d say one of the younger Karstark brothers, Torrhen and Eddard, would be the most likely choice for a consort. I’m gonna say it’s Eddard because he’d be closer in age to Robin than Torrhen, and because there is merit in employing name politics and having the namesake of the current lord of Winterfell as its future lord consort (and I’m getting a kick out of it and of course my enjoyment should be a deciding factor. Duh.)

Anyways. A Karstark would be an excellent choice for a lord consort to Robin. The Karstarks are one of the principal vassals of
house Stark with a strong military presence and a blood connection to the Starks that make them a more traditional choice for marriage partners; indeed Starks have taken Karstark maids to wife thrice, the last of
which was the marriage of Lysara Karstark to Artos the Implacable,
uncle to Ned’s mother Lyarra and great-uncle to his father Rickard. That makes them a generally excellent choice, especially so for Catelyn – after all, what
better way to empathize her daughter’s Northerness than
to wed her to someone who has the blood of the Starks? Their children
would be Starks twice over. The Karstarks also bear some resemblance to the Starks with brown hair and blue-grey eyes and that could be a way to neutralize any prospective danger of the Stark-looking Jon Snow.

I’m not sure what the relationship between Robin and Jon would be like here. For one, Catelyn’s attempts to interfere in their relationship would double because her fear of Jon would be greater. In OTL, she caused tension in their relationship when they were children when she impressed upon Robb how Jon could never be lord of Winterfell due to his bastard status, ensuring that Jon would be put in his place even during an innocent game. With a daughter as an heir instead of a son, I imagine Catelyn would increase her efforts to get Robin to see Jon as only a bastard sibling with no place in Winterfell which could influence the siblings’ relationship, especially since Robin would be largely under Catelyn’s supervision as a child before it became clear that she’d probably inherit Winterfell. On the other hand, there is Ned and his obvious desire to foster love between Jon and his children. He prayed for Robb and Jon to grow up close in OTL and evidently took care to encourage their relationship. Besides, Ned’s vague plans for Jon’s future seemed to to be that Robb would find a place for his brother in Winterfell – none of that would change if Robb was a girl. With the expectation that Jon would either stay in Winterfell or even be afforded a holdfast to hold in his sister’s name, Ned would be as invested in encouraging Jon and Robin to build a good relationship based on love and trust as he was in canon. I imagine he might promote the idea of Jon as Robin’s protector and champion, a shield against any who mean his sisters harm. With them being the same age and thus probably taking their lessons together and with Ned invested in instructing Jon the way he’d instruct a trueborn son alongside his heiress (though Catelyn would mount a vigorous protest against that), the siblings might have a close relationship despite Cateyn’s displeasure and best efforts to prevent it.

How the war would change in this scenario, however, is highly speculative. There are many possibilities stating from the question of whether Robin would even leave for the Riverlands with her army or give the command to another and stay in Winterfell, as Robb was advised to do so by Maester Luwin in OTL. Regardless of whether she is present in the Riverlands or not, she would not be in the Battle of the Whispering Wood so Jaime Lannister’s mad charge does not happen. Do Daryn Hornwood and the Karstark brothers survive the battle in that case? That would mean no Rickard Karstark howling for revenge, no Hornwood inheritance issue and no Ramsay raping and starving poor Lady Donella sending Rodrick Cassel after him (unless news of the rest of his crimes still make it to Winterfell). The bigger question here is if Robin listens to Catelyn’s counsel and sends someone other than Theon to Pyke; if she does, Winterfell does not fall and the North is able to rally against the ironborn, making it easier to throw them out once Balon dies. The other question is Ramsays’ whereabouts: if his crimes still attract Ser Rodrick, he’d be imprisoned in Winterfell under the Reek disguise and unable to communicate with Roose or strike at the Northern forces; if he is still at large, well he can still pull off his betrayal by attacking the Northmen while they attack the ironborn. I suspect that might be the deciding factor in whether Roose betrays the Starks or not.

As to what happens with the Red Wedding, well, who the hell knows?

image