Another thing about the claim that race and culture are treated separately by fandom when it comes to the Dornish arc.

We base our opinions on what the narrative tells and not only has the narrative itself established the interlocking of the two things, it must be observed that their difference in both culture and ethnic makeup from the rest of Westeros comes from the Rhyonar, a non-white foreign population that landed in Dorne and intermarried with the Dornish population bringing certain customs and mores with them. It’s been thoroughly established that Westeros reacts with extreme prejudice to both non-white ethnicities and foreigners, and certainly not simply because of difference in culture. So with a population already primed for a racially-motivated reaction, it can not be discounted that our entire introduction to Dornish culture in the books was filtered through a racial lens. One of the effects of GRRM only introducing a Dornish PoV so late is that we got all our information through characters that are racially prejudiced against the Dornish to varying extents which inherently colors the information presented to us that we base our arguments upon with racial implications. Our view of Dornish culture was literally shaped by what racially-mindful characters tell us about it. We met Oberyn, who is widely used to argue that Dornish culture is permissible of adultery, through Tyrion’s eyes, and Tyrion immediately had racist thoughts re the smell of Dornishmen. Not only was Tyrion not an objective Pov on the Dornish, but we never heard Oberyn’s own thoughts about his own culture or how his sexual practices fit into it. Still, fandom responds to that by making broad generalizations about Dornish culture and Dornish people.

There is a tendency to regress Dornish culture to sex, violence and hot temper in canon (case in point, The Dornishman’s Wife being one of the popular songs in Westeros) which isn’t just prejudice but specifically racially-motivated prejudice since that parallels the same treatment of real PoC cultures in real life (e.g: look at how the West stereotypes and minimizes Asian cultures). Fandom tends to reflect that minimizing treatment in its arguments, hence the stereotyping of the entire Dornish culture by Oberyn’s example. That kind of treatment is reserved to the Dornish. I don’t think that people have been adamant in their insistence that Ned Stark was the representative of the North or Robert Baratheon of the Stormlands. When an attitude only emerges with a culture populated by people of color, that it is absolutely about race.

Furthermore, the issue is wider than that because GRRM employed racist tropes in his writing of Dorne (and other PoC cultures, look at the Dothraki for example). The exotic-erotic trope he uses so heavily with the Dornish is racist because it is usually used with PoC to other and dehumanize them. The hypersexualization reduces them to their sexual practices and uses sex as a mark of their foreignness. This colors both the narrative and fandom’s reaction to it as long as people refuse to be critical of the racist elements there.

So I guess I just don’t understand how anyone can separate race from a narrative absolutely permeated with racial issues on both doylist and watsonian fronts, and when race and culture are so interlocked in the story.

wintersoldierrogers:

what she says: i’m fine

what she means: captain america has been a huge part of my life and chris evans’s portrayal of one of my favourite characters got me through dark times and introduced me to a same but different incarnation of this character that i love. chris evans has played this character with such dignity and grace and has shown time and again that he understands the core of who steve rogers is; and despite his anxieties about taking it on, he’s grown so much in his time with steve rogers and has come to do his best to exemplify steve’s values on and off-screen. marvel is huge on legacy characters and of course the next captain america will be his own actor & character & person, but chris evans is steve rogers, and the last few years have been such a great & wonderful journey with him.

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love-dragoneyes

mentioned you on a post

“Nowhere. By and large this argument seems to have been engendered by…”

@moonlitgleek​ You do realize that you’re quoting the books and not the fandom opinions on Elia ? Do you see the difference between book characters and the fandom ? You know the difference between the fiction and reality ? 😀 Thank you for admitting you made that “brown Elia” up. That’s what I wanted to hear.

You honest to god lack reading comprehension. You say you’ve never seen anyone who loved Rhaegar disrespect Elia, I give you several examples. You say that I’m making this issue about race, I not only give you links to messages that are about race, I explain why a popular fandom argument is racist. You try to claim that Dornish culture and race are two separate issue, I prove to you that the narrative itself ties them together. You say that I can’t prove that the narrative bias towards Elia is about race, I give you plenty of book quotes that say otherwise….. that you then use to claim I’m conflating fandom and books. Oh, have I backed you into a corner? Can’t find anything else to tell me “proof or never happened” over?

You’ve been incredibly rude this whole time which I’ve chosen to ignore. You’ve called me a liar, said my opinion was dumb and now you’re basically calling me delusional. Meanwhile you’ve consistently refused to address my question about the implication of refusing to consider Elia and her children Rhaegar’s family. You’ve deliberately chosen not to check out the things I’ve linked that contain the corroboration you demanded. You’ve willfully misrepresented my words. You’re not interested in facts that don’t match your own view. You expect us all to bow down to your own experience in fandom (because you didn’t see what we’re talking about so of course it did not happen) and to treat racism by your own definition of it (because it is not racism until someone specifically says “brown Elia ain’t worthy”).
Our entire interaction consisted of you putting your fingers in your
ears and refusing to listen when I’ve refuted every point you’ve made.
With proof.

I’m not wasting my breath any more than I already have. Keep living in your fantasy land where I’ve “admitted to making that brown Elia up” if you wish. I’m sure it’s awfully convenient for you.

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“You’re sending hate to yourselves. You’re awful”. You cry as you send me hate anonymously, gleefully reveling in the deniability the feature grants you.

“You’re acting like you’re morally superior. We don’t” . You cry as you express your misogyny and call us mad. Also misandrist and reverse-racist (those…. don’t exist)

“I didn’t know you were petty and self-loathing”. My dude. I’m not the one sending anon hate and simultaneously denying that me and my friends send anon hate.

Perhaps you might want to exercise a little bit of self-awareness next time. Or don’t. I don’t really care. I’m blocking you anyways.

Have a wonderful evening!

love-dragoneyes:

moonlitgleek:

ramzesfics:

love-dragoneyes:

Nowhere. By and large this argument seems to have been engendered by the thought that there is no way that Rhaegar had willingly accepted to marry a brown disabled/chronically ill woman so he must have been forced to (which is where this came from). It also appears that there is a subset of fandom that is basing this on the fact that arranged marriages inherently undermines agency ergo every arranged marriage is forced. But I have no idea why they choose to apply this to Rhaegar only and act as if that was Elia’s fault and so she had to bear the consequences.


This is literally the dumbest thing I’ve read for weeks. I haven’t met a single person who loves Rhaegar and disrespects Elia at the same time. Everyone thinks Elia is a tragic figure. And how desperate of antis to pull the racist card while nobody in Rhaegar’s fandom even mentions Elia’s looks and origins ? I haven’t read a single post of Rhaegar’s fans that use this argument. Why do you need to lie to make your point ? It’s worthless if you’re lying, do you even get that ? 😀 Nobody blames Elia for the failure of their marriage. People notice the difference between an arranged marriage and falling in love. Who said the rule applied to Rhaegar and Elia only ? Catelyn Stark often thought of her Brandon and Lysa Tully never stopped loving Petyr. What about Cersei and her love for Rhaegar ? 

I understand that you need to justify your hate but at least be honest about it. Don’t blame George Martin for making Rhaegar the hero and the readers because they’re capable of understanding what the books are about.

You never saw this? Well, we did. It’s all over in our anon boxes. Why anon boxes, you may ask? Why, because it gives people like you the chance to say we send these messages to ourselves. Because it’s so filthy that even most Rhaegar lovers will likely become disgusted, so people don’t dare write it on their own blogs. They did try the unworthy wife card once upon a time, it didn’t work this well, so they’re now going anonymous.

Plus, I don’t know if you have noticed this but you’re only commenting on @moonlitgleek ’s own perceptions of why Rhaegar lovers do what they do. You don’t comment on the fact that people do write Rhaegar was “forced” into the marriage all over the place and insinuate that this gave him the right to do what he did. Why insinuate? The answer is the same: they don’t dare write it openly because that’s going to make them look bad.

So, as a Rhaegar fan, why do you think people write Rhaegar was forced into the marriage? I’m not talking about those who differentiate between arranged and due to love. Why do you think people like to pretend Rhaegar was so very much against the match arranged as 99% of the matches in his culture and family were?

@love-dragoneyes  The biggest irony here is that the part where you quoted me literally links to an ask that contains my so-called lies. You copy-pasted my reply with the link included. Did it maybe cross your mind to click on it to verify my words? No? Because then you’d have met someone who loved Rhaegar and disrespected Elia. Referring to her as “that sickly woman” isn’t exactly ambiguous.

I find it so presumptuous to say that because you didn’t see someone saying that crap, that means I’m making things up to justify my hate. Boy howdy you must be privy to everything that gets said in fandom then if you’re so sure. @ramzesfics is right. We’ve seen a whole lot of those arguments. Would you like to hear about the time Elia was called mentally deranged apparently for failing to stop her kids’ murder?
Or the anon who mysteriously discounted Elia and her children as Rhaegar’s family?

That one is a personal favorite of mine. Perhaps you’d be interested in knowing about that one time someone said that Elia couldn’t meet the requirements of the prophecy because she didn’t have enough dragon blood? Or the one who insinuated that the Princess of Dorne wanting the highest marital prize in the land for her daughter was a bad thing? I can keep going. I have a lot of these messages and what do you know, they always, always appear in the wake of me criticizing something Rhaegar had done. It’s not that hard to deduce where they are coming from.

As for me “pulling the racist card”, one of the most popular arguments from Rhaegar fans is that Elia was alright with Rhaegar’s actions regarding Lyanna because she is Dornish. You literally can not divorce racial elements from that discussion. It wouldn’t exist if Elia was not Dornish. Also, how exactly am I supposed to take it when someone tries to argue that Rhaegar finally had a family with Lyanna as if he didn’t share two children with Elia? I’m not reaching here to make this about race. It is about race. The entire narrative bias that puts the responsibility of Rhaegar’s actions on Elia is about race. Again, not an ambiguous matter.

By the way, the issue I’m arguing here isn’t about someone blaming Elia for the failure of their marriage. It is about acting like this so-called forced marriage gives Rhaegar the right to do what he did. It is about not applying the same logic to Elia as well as Rhaegar. If any arranged marriage is forced, that means that Elia was forced to marry Rhaegar too, except Rhaegar still had power. Elia didn’t.

You’ve denied the existence of certain arguments blindly and on no basis other than that you haven’t personally seen it then you’ve used that to call me names. You’ve conveniently chosen to completely overlook the actual subject of discussion in favor of making broad claims you have no way of corroborating. But somehow I’m the one making stuff up. Okay.

Now I’d really like to hear your answer to Ramzes’ question about why people are framing Rhaegar and Elia’s marriage as forced.

@moonlitgleek

The biggest irony here is that the part where you quoted me literally links to an ask that contains my so-called lies. You copy-pasted my reply with the link included. Did it maybe cross your mind to click on it to verify my words? No? Because then you’d have met someone who loved Rhaegar and disrespected Elia. Referring to her as “that sickly woman” isn’t exactly ambiguous.

Nope. I saw anon ask “where is it written that Rhaegar was forced to marry Elia” and your reply. I didn’t see “that sickly woman” comment which by the way is not the same as your “brown woman.” Apparently someone rudely mentioned Elia’s poor health and you chose to bring up racism.

By and large this argument seems to have been engendered by the thought that there is no way that Rhaegar had willingly accepted to marry a brown disabled/chronically ill woman so he must have been forced to (which is where this came from).

Proof or never happened. I genuinely want to see who claims Elia was not good enough because she was brown. 

As for me “pulling the racist card”, one of the most popular arguments from Rhaegar fans is that Elia was alright with Rhaegar’s actions regarding Lyanna because she is Dornish.

It’s about Dornish culture not race. We don’t know whether she was fine with it or not. If George Martin makes her fine with it will you apologize for calling people racist ?

You literally can not divorce racial elements from that discussion. It wouldn’t exist if Elia was not Dornish.

Maybe you can’t. George Martin created Dornish culture. People assume Elia might have been alright with Rhaegar’s infidelity because Dornish people, like Oberyn and Ellaria are not as conservative as people in Westeros. Is it racist to say French people were ok with their president having a daughter out of wedlock while it would’ve been disapproved in other countries ? 

Recognizing cultural differences is not racism. Some people are very proud of their culture.

 Also, how exactly am I supposed to take it when someone tries to argue that Rhaegar finally had a family with Lyanna as if he didn’t share two children with Elia? 

I didn’t see that. I don’t agree with it but I was talking about racist accusations.  It’s written all over the books that people were forced to do things they didn’t want to as was Rhaegar. One might think George Martin is trying to say feudal system was wrong. 

I’m not reaching here to make this about race. It is about race. The entire narrative bias that puts the responsibility of Rhaegar’s actions on Elia is about race. Again, not an ambiguous matter.

Too bad you can’t prove it. 

Oh for the love of god. Click on the links. You keep asking for proof and then when I provide it you act like I never did.

Fine. This got too long so under the cut it goes.

The biggest irony here is that the part where you quoted me literally
links to an ask that contains my so-called lies. You copy-pasted my
reply with the link included. Did it maybe cross your mind to click on
it to verify my words? No? Because then you’d have met someone who loved
Rhaegar and disrespected Elia. Referring to her as “that sickly woman”
isn’t exactly ambiguous.

Nope. I saw anon ask “where is it written that Rhaegar was forced to
marry Elia” and your reply. I didn’t see “that sickly woman” comment
which by the way is not the same as your “brown woman.” Apparently
someone rudely mentioned Elia’s poor health and you chose to bring up
racism.

You didn’t bother to check a link that might have verified my post. Got it. BTW I said brown disabled women so it wasn’t like I linked to something totally unrelatable. I guess I just thought I didn’t need to prove that Elia faced racism as well. Still, I did provide links to corroborate the brown woman part. Did you miss the one where Elia and her children weren’t counted as Rhaegar’s family? What exactly do you think this was about? Tell me this has nothing to do with race. I dare you.

By and large this argument seems to have been engendered by the thought that there is no way
that Rhaegar had willingly accepted to marry a brown
disabled/chronically ill woman so he must have been forced to (which is
where this came from).

Proof or never happened. I genuinely want to see who claims Elia was not good enough because she was brown.

We’re not children to act like something has to be explicitly deriding to be racist. Racism is not only directly saying that Elia is not good enough because she is brown. Not counting her and her children as Rhaegar’s family works just fine. Implying that something is wrong with her mother for wanting the highest marital prize for her works just fine. Dismissing Elia as collateral damage for Rhaegar’s “right” to pursue love works just fine (because that nifty “sickly woman” ask? Was a response to me arguing that what Rhaegar did to Elia was bloody awful) Do you even know how racism works?

As for me “pulling the racist card”, one of the most popular arguments
from Rhaegar fans is that Elia was alright with Rhaegar’s actions
regarding Lyanna because she is Dornish.

It’s about Dornish culture not race. We don’t know whether she was
fine with it or not. If George Martin makes her fine with it will you
apologize for calling people racist ?

You literally can not divorce racial elements from that discussion. It wouldn’t exist if Elia was not Dornish.

Maybe you can’t. George Martin created Dornish culture. People assume
Elia might have been alright with Rhaegar’s infidelity because Dornish
people, like Oberyn and Ellaria are not as conservative as people in
Westeros. Is it racist to say French people were ok with their president
having a daughter out of wedlock while it would’ve been disapproved in
other countries ?

Recognizing cultural differences is not racism. Some people are very
proud of their culture.

*blinks*

What the hell kind of false equivalence are you trying to base your argument on here? Dorne is the only PoC culture in Westeros. You can not claim that culture and race are not intrinsically intertwined here, especially not when race explicitly drives the response to Dornish characters so widely. The Dornish are so heavily stigmatized as an
“other” due to both their ethnicity and their different culture. Still skeptical that it is about race as much as culture? Well, it certainly wasn’t a matter of culture that prompted Aerys Targrayen to say that baby Rhaenys “smelled Dornish”. It wasn’t a matter of culture that made Tyrion think about cracking a joke about the difference between a Dornishman and cowflop. It wasn’t a matter of culture when Leo Tyrell insulted Dornishmen in a drivel that brought up skin color. It sure as hell wasn’t a matter of culture when Baelor Breakspear’s Dornish look was derided and used as a base for a rebellion. Race is all over the Dornish characters’ arcs and it is what drives the bastardization of their culture that essentially boil it down to sex, violence, and hot temper. If you’re interested in reading more about that intertwining, this post excellently covers all bases.

But that’s in-universe, you say. Just because that’s how Dorne is treated in-universe doesn’t necessarily mean fandom holds the same views. Perhaps that’s true. But when fandom treats a non-white culture whose presentation is intrinsically tied with race as a monolithic entity because of one relationship, when fandom starts reflecting the same stereotyping of the racist characters in-universe re: the more open view of sex in Dorne and starts treating it as complete permissibility and a proof that non-monogamous relationships are the norm in Dorne, then fandom has displayed the same racist views. Oberyn being treated as if he is the representative for his entire culture is not recognizing cultural difference. That’s stereotyping. Which is racist.

But since you’ve brought up apologies, I’m still waiting for your apology for calling me a liar when I’ve provided receipts to the things you challenged.

Also, how exactly am I supposed to take it when someone tries to argue that Rhaegar finally had a family with Lyanna as if he didn’t share two children with Elia?

I didn’t see that. I don’t agree with it but I was talking about
racist accusations.  It’s written all over the books that people were
forced to do things they didn’t want to as was Rhaegar. One might think
George Martin is trying to say feudal system was wrong.

Yeah, I think you’ve proved that it doesn’t matter if you’ve seen it or not since you tell me above “proof or never happened”. I give you proof and you dance around admitting it is about race. What is it about then? Please don’t say arranged marriage because that doesn’t erase Rhaegar’s fatherhood to Elia’s children and so it doesn’t work to justify not counting them as his family. I mean, I don’t imagine there is people trying to argue that Dany don’t count as Rhaella’s or Daeron II as Naerys’ despite the fact that both queens were explicitly forced into their marriages.

(ETA: Also, what happened to your claim that my response was dumb because you’ve never seen anyone who loves Rhaegar and disrespects Elia at the same time? Suddenly this is only about the racist accusations now?)

I’m not reaching here to make this about race. It is about
race. The entire narrative bias that puts the responsibility of
Rhaegar’s actions on Elia is about race. Again, not an ambiguous matter.

Too bad you can’t prove it.

Oh but I can.

Blaming Elia for Rhaegar’s actions using racial implications (with a side of ableism because that’s a big factor too):

It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin’s
daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a
feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest 

Dornish princess with black eyes. Baelor Breakspear was derided for having black eyes and hair. What a coincidence.

If Aerys had agreed to marry [Cersei] to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have
been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted,
lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar
might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. 

Implying that a deficiency in Elia is why Rhaegar went after Lyanna and that Cersei would have prevented that. Cersei would have given him “sons [plural]… lions with purple eyes and silver manes”. Unlike little Rhaenys who had her mother’s look.

His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of
Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish
princess was a kitchen drab.
   

Colorism plays a part here (ableism as well). The Daynes are also Dornish but their coloring is noticeably lighter than the Martells. Elia was darker skinned than Ashara. Had darker eyes and hair too. This quote doesn’t lay blame on Elia in and of itself but Barristan had previously failed to disagree with the assumption that Rhaegar might not have run away if he had married someone else and displayed some breathtaking ableism in bringing up Elia’s health during the discussion.

As for racism against Dornish people in general, which btw makes scapegoating them much easier:

When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to
his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but
King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she “smells Dornish.”
 

  

  [The Citadel] will take anything these days. Dusky dogs and Dornishmen, pig boys, cripples, cretins, and now a black-clad whale. And here I thought leviathans were grey.“

Yet too many men looked upon Baelor’s dark hair and eyes
and muttered that he was more Martell than Targaryen […] Knights and lords of the Dornish Marches came to
mistrust Daeron, and Baelor as well, and began to look more and more to the old days, when Dornishmen were the enemy to fight

Remember, she is Dornish. In the Reach men said it was the food that
made Dornishmen so hot-tempered and their women so wild and wanton.
Fiery peppers and strange spices heat the blood, she cannot help herself

 

Still wanna argue that racism has nothing to do with it?